Author Topic: Do the Kato 932090 Wheelsets Fit the LL/Walthers N GP60?  (Read 929 times)

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tehachapifan

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Do the Kato 932090 Wheelsets Fit the LL/Walthers N GP60?
« on: January 08, 2022, 01:31:46 AM »
0
Will the entire Kato wheelset drop in? If not, will the Kato wheels fit into the LL/Walthers axle sleeve?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 10:19:04 PM by GaryHinshaw »

kiwi_bnsf

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Re: Do the Kato 932090 Wheelsets Fit the LL/Walthers N GP60?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2022, 08:31:49 PM »
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Short answer: no.

I ended up swapping the trucks with Atlas GP40 replacements, and these will take the Kato finescale 932090 wheels (if you press in the half axles slightly using a NWSL puller or Arbor Press).

I hope this helps!

Cheers
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Tim

Modelling Tehachapi East Slope in N scale circa 1999

tehachapifan

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Re: Do the Kato 932090 Wheelsets Fit the LL/Walthers N GP60?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2022, 08:51:45 PM »
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Well, that's not the news I was hoping for as I have a GP60 with wheels worn down to straight brass. Regarding the Atlas truck swap, I've heard these will fit but then heard someone say they don't fit all that great (something about ride height and/or truck mesh). What was your experience with this?

kiwi_bnsf

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Re: Do the Kato 932090 Wheelsets Fit the LL/Walthers N GP60?
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2022, 02:21:15 AM »
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I can’t really speak to the long term reliability of the GP40 truck conversion.

The lack of accurate springs on the truck annoyed me too much and I ended up swapping in a Fox Valley chassis (with the spacers removed). I only did this because the shell was already super detailed (predating the FVM model).

In all honesty, the Fox Valley Geep 60s are far superior IMHO.

If I was starting from scratch, I would just grab one of those via eBay or the few retailers that still have them.

Cheers
--
Tim

Modelling Tehachapi East Slope in N scale circa 1999

peteski

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Re: Do the Kato 932090 Wheelsets Fit the LL/Walthers N GP60?
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2022, 02:54:06 AM »
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I don't have LL GP60, but if the trucks are the same as in GP20 (which I have), then the Kato wheels can be fitted into those trucks.  I just tried it.

But Kato wheelset axle length is too wide -- would not turn freely in the axle cups. They need to be modified (axles pushed in slightly) using procedure defined in a related thread (starting at this post): https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=33107.msg379288#msg379288 .  The other issue is that Kato wheels scale as 40", while the LL wheels are amost 43" in diameter, so the truck and loco will ride lower.  Maybe it would be worth to buy a set of Kato wheelsets and try them yourself.
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kiwi_bnsf

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Re: Do the Kato 932090 Wheelsets Fit the LL/Walthers N GP60?
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2022, 03:50:15 AM »
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The LifeLike GP60 to wheels are a significantly larger diameter, and the Kato replacements did not work for me. It was not an issue of axle point width - it was more fundamental. The truck simply didn’t function. I don’t have any GP20s so I can’t say whether they are the same or different.

I’m away from home currently, so I can’t measure or photograph anything, but if it had worked, then I would have gone down that route.

Cheers
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Tim

Modelling Tehachapi East Slope in N scale circa 1999

tehachapifan

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Re: Do the Kato 932090 Wheelsets Fit the LL/Walthers N GP60?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2022, 01:23:51 PM »
+4
Thanks for the info, guys! :D

The reason I don't just replace them with FVM units is I really like them and probably got them for $40 or less back when you could still get locos for around that on the bay. Also, they run silky-smooth and the crispness of the shell details and the paint is second to none. Yes, they have the incorrect truck sideframes and maybe the top of the short hood slopes a tad too much (at least compared to other brands' EMD models) but they still look great to me. Plus, the loco with the worn wheels is a phase I kitbash I did, and I want to keep it!....



On the whole adjusting the wheels on the half axles thing, I still don't have the tools required for that.






peteski

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Re: Do the Kato 932090 Wheelsets Fit the LL/Walthers N GP60?
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2022, 03:39:47 PM »
0
Even without an arbor or even drill press, I recall  someone in another thread re-purposing some sort of inexpensive hand-held watch case press to adjust the half axles.  I'll see if I can find that post. I should have linked to that post in the thread I pointed you to.

But if the trucks are different than the ones in my GP20, then Kato wheels will not work.  I'm curious how the trucks look. Could you post photos of the bottom and top pf those trucks?
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Steveruger45

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Re: Do the Kato 932090 Wheelsets Fit the LL/Walthers N GP60?
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2022, 03:40:57 PM »
+1
Russ, it crossed my mind to see if an old atlas wheel set could be an option for replacement.
I have a few LL GP 60’s too and one is also worn through to brass.  Still works fine though.
I found the wheel diameter of the atlas wheel sets are in fact a tad smaller than the kato, 6.45mm vs 6.48mm, so nope.
Steve
Atascocita, Texas

Albert in N

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Re: Do the Kato 932090 Wheelsets Fit the LL/Walthers N GP60?
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2022, 09:33:27 PM »
+1
 ;)  Minutes ago, I took photos of my LL GP-20 and Walthers/ Life Like GP-60.  The there are slight differences in the trucks, noting the gear cover (GP-60) and a few others.  They do seem to be similar in size.  They were bargain close-outs when I ordered them new several years ago from Trainworld.  The GP-20 was $39.99 plus shipping and the GP-60 was $49.99 plus shipping.  They still run great, as does my other GP-60.




tehachapifan

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Re: Do the Kato 932090 Wheelsets Fit the LL/Walthers N GP60?
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2022, 10:32:44 PM »
+1
Was trying to do a multi-quote to address all the replies and I guess messed it up. So, thanks peteski and steve!

Regarding the photos, the GP60 shown is actually a Walthers model. Walthers changed the truck sideframe design from what the LL GP60's had. The LL GP60 sideframes looked very similar, if not identical, to the LL GP20 sideframes shown. This includes the closed vs. open bottoms plus sideframe detail changes (addition of a snubber where a brake pod used to be).

peteski

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Re: Do the Kato 932090 Wheelsets Fit the LL/Walthers N GP60?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2022, 11:07:45 PM »
+1
If your GP60 tucks look similar to the GP20 trucks then the retrofit should work. As I wrote earlier, I actually tried the Kato wheelset in LL GP20 truck last night, and they were compatible.  But the unmodified Kato wheelset's axle ends fit very very tightly. Not usable. The axle halves really need to be adjusted (pushed in, like I recommended for the Atlas retrofit).  The gear could also rub slightly against the gear case. I would recommend adding a plastic washer on the gear side. which I also mentioned in the other thread (for keeping the wheels in gauge). In this case, the washer will move the gear away from the gear case.


Washer is shown in the bottom wheelset.

Looking at the Walthers (new) truck design I don't see any obvious difference in the wheelset as compared to the old one, but without having the wheelset out of the truck and counting the teeth on the gear, I can't say whether Kato wheelset would be compatible with that one (and kiwi_bnsf said that they don't work).

Another option would be to just swap the Kato wheels/half-axles (after pushing the half-axles in) into the LL gear/axle-tube.  Both use 1mm axles, but LL axle is exactly 1.0mm while Kato is 0.99mm so that results in a loose fit. Maybe some CA glue would work, but since the Kato gear is compatible with the LL truck, there is no need for this swap.

But as I mentioned, without adjusting the axles, this swap will not work.  As far as having the right tools for pressing the axles in, reply #31 has info on the watch case press, and reply #33 shows how to use a drill press.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2022, 04:10:45 AM by peteski »
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kiwi_bnsf

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Re: Do the Kato 932090 Wheelsets Fit the LL/Walthers N GP60?
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2022, 03:25:35 AM »
+1
Okay, so I've gone back through my email archive from 2011 when I faced this exact same issue. I can confirm that Kato 932090 replacement in the LifeLike trucks failed because the Kato wheels are indeed a significantly smaller diameter (there were no issues with the width of the half axle points), This lowered the loco to such an extent that the plow hit the rails, and the couplers were too low. The LifeLike wheels are a bit weird in this respect — they are so large that I even tried Kato SD90MAC wheels in place of them, but they were too big!

This was what caused me to switch to Atlas GP40 trucks, which worked fine, but didn't look right because of the missing (distinctive) springs.

This led me to swap in a whole FVM chassis under my super detailed LifeLike shells (which worked fine once I removed the spacers from the FVM chassis).

Sorry I cannot take measurements or photos for another four days when I'm back from Summer holidays (here in New Zealand). I will report back with more info once I'm home.

Cheers
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Tim

Modelling Tehachapi East Slope in N scale circa 1999

peteski

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Re: Do the Kato 932090 Wheelsets Fit the LL/Walthers N GP60?
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2022, 05:36:18 AM »
+1
I took some measurements (of my LL GP20).

LL GP20 wheel diameter:
0.266" (6.76mm) or 42.6"

Kato wheel diameter:
0.2555" (6.49mm) or 40.9"

Kato wheels are 0.0105" (0.27mm) smaller diameter.  That  should result in the truck riding only 0.0053" (0.14mm) lower.

LL GP20 axle length:
0.535" (13.59mm)

Kato axle length:
0.562 (14.28mm)

I wonder if the LL (or Walthers) GP60 wheels are even larger than LL GP20?
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amato1969

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Re: Do the Kato 932090 Wheelsets Fit the LL/Walthers N GP60?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2022, 12:42:00 PM »
+1
Even without an arbor or even drill press, I recall  someone in another thread re-purposing some sort of inexpensive hand-held watch case press to adjust the half axles.

Here's what I use to adjust those Kato wheelsets:
https://www.amazon.com/Zacro-Closer-Watchmaker-Repair-Fitting/dp/B073PW85HS

  Frank