Author Topic: New ESU 58741 V5 'Kato USA' board video  (Read 6457 times)

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Cajonpassfan

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Re: New ESU 58741 V5 'Kato USA' board video
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2022, 06:29:16 PM »
0
I also had issues with the motor control of my 2017 edition FEF-3 with its "factory" ESU Loksound decoder, so I replaced it with a Tsunami 2 Steam 2 decoder. I am very happy with its performance at all speeds, now (from 0-50 smph on my small layout).

Well, that may be the way to go, the TSU2's actually sound quite good to my ears, if the low end motor control works.
Someone I know is planning to try the new ESU on the Kato FEF soon, so I think I will wait. My engine is still in the mail, anyway, so no rush here.
Thanks for the feedback, Dave.
Otto
« Last Edit: January 16, 2022, 11:36:54 AM by Cajonpassfan »

RBrodzinsky

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Re: New ESU 58741 V5 'Kato USA' board video
« Reply #61 on: January 16, 2022, 02:31:43 PM »
+3
Being the "someone I know"....

I found these comments intriguing.  I did try installing a Select into my 844, and did not like the performance one bit and took it out.  Of course, that was in my early days for LokSound decoders, and I didn't know how to tune the motor parameters.

Having recently received my first batch of the new ESU Kato USA decoders, I had planned to install one into my 844, based on Kelley's video. But then Otto contacted me, concerned with the comments about poor performance with coreless motors.   I had recently installed a LokPilot into a small tank engine with a coreless motor, and knew that adjusting the parameters were somewhat counter to the instructions in the ESU manual.

Anyway, haven't truly completed the install (and probably won't for a couple weeks), but here is video for the "tuned" motor operation (no shell, no speaker for sound, etc)


Here's a screen capture of the motor parameters (also in the video description)

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Rick Brodzinsky
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EL3632

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Re: New ESU 58741 V5 'Kato USA' board video
« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2022, 03:52:49 PM »
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Here is an 8444 with the 58741 installed in a unit I installed a decoder in. This is on speed step 1, on factory settings.
Modeling the Erie Lackawanna and Delaware & Hudson in 1975, and Conrail and the Delaware & Hudson in 1981.

I want an N Scale GE U33/34/36C!

peteski

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Re: New ESU 58741 V5 'Kato USA' board video
« Reply #63 on: January 16, 2022, 06:36:35 PM »
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Thanks guys!  Like I mentioned it this was few years ago, and I have not revisited that FEF3 project over at my friends.

To be honest, I would like the slow speed to be even slower than EL3632's video shows, but I'll ask my friend to let me know all the CV values Rick provided to see what is different.  Then I'll ask my friend to set those CVs to Ricks values and see how the loco behaves.
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nightmare0331

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Re: New ESU 58741 V5 'Kato USA' board video
« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2022, 07:39:16 AM »
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Being the "someone I know"....

I found these comments intriguing.  I did try installing a Select into my 844, and did not like the performance one bit and took it out.  Of course, that was in my early days for LokSound decoders, and I didn't know how to tune the motor parameters.

Having recently received my first batch of the new ESU Kato USA decoders, I had planned to install one into my 844, based on Kelley's video. But then Otto contacted me, concerned with the comments about poor performance with coreless motors.   I had recently installed a LokPilot into a small tank engine with a coreless motor, and knew that adjusting the parameters were somewhat counter to the instructions in the ESU manual.

Anyway, haven't truly completed the install (and probably won't for a couple weeks), but here is video for the "tuned" motor operation (no shell, no speaker for sound, etc)


Here's a screen capture of the motor parameters (also in the video description)

(Attachment Link)

'right click, save as...'

I have a case of Grayhound FEF3's here for sound install that I'll get started cracking on in the next couple of weeks.

I'm going to apply these settings and give it a whirl!

Thanks Rich!

Kelley.
www.dufordmodelworks.com

RBrodzinsky

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Re: New ESU 58741 V5 'Kato USA' board video
« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2022, 10:14:46 AM »
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One thing I didn't do when playing with this, yesterday, was test to see what effect adjusting the PWM frequency would have on slow speed crawl.  By default, it is 40 KHz, but I'm wondering if changing that value might smooth things a bit.  I'm also wondering if putting the shell on and putting the screw at the back of the cab in might take some of the issue out, since, in the video, one can see the back end of the frame wobbling a bit.

And, to be clear, when I installed the decoder using the FEF project (S0590), the default motor settings in the project had the motor lurching like crazy in the slowest speed tests.
Rick Brodzinsky
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RBrodzinsky

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Re: New ESU 58741 V5 'Kato USA' board video
« Reply #66 on: January 20, 2022, 04:10:19 PM »
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Well, this sucks!  Went to install the speakers, rear light, etc., and the loco wasn't responding well when I went to test it prior to doing any work.  After a couple of moments, the light blinked, and the LokProgrammer Driver's Cab switched itself off (indicating a short).

Took decoder out and attached a 6-pin plug (motor and track tabs only) to test with LP and a LokTester.  LP can read the decoder info, but as soon as even the low power of the Driver's Cab is applied, it shorts.   Nothing visible on the board as to a damaged component.

Grrrr.
Rick Brodzinsky
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peteski

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Re: New ESU 58741 V5 'Kato USA' board video
« Reply #67 on: January 20, 2022, 04:33:58 PM »
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Well, this sucks!  Went to install the speakers, rear light, etc., and the loco wasn't responding well when I went to test it prior to doing any work.  After a couple of moments, the light blinked, and the LokProgrammer Driver's Cab switched itself off (indicating a short).

Took decoder out and attached a 6-pin plug (motor and track tabs only) to test with LP and a LokTester.  LP can read the decoder info, but as soon as even the low power of the Driver's Cab is applied, it shorts.   Nothing visible on the board as to a damaged component.

Grrrr.

Most likely a problem with one or more of the transistors in the H-bridge which drives the motor.  When they fry, the plastic case usually has a crack in it, but I suppose they could have failed without any visible damage (or the damage is on the bottom).

I don't have one of those decoders in my stash, but if you look at the decoders in my "decoded" thread, I show the location of the motor driver transistors on those decoder. Usually 4 identical looking components clustered together.

While this wont help, what happens when you try to run (not program) the decoder without the motor attached?
What happens without the motor attached with the throttle in stopped (speed step 0) and trying to turn on the headlights. Do they come on?
What happens if you turn the analog bit on in CV29 and (with the motor attached) you try to run the model using a 9V battery?

Like I  mentioned, this will not fix the decoder, but it would be interesting to find out..
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RBrodzinsky

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Re: New ESU 58741 V5 'Kato USA' board video
« Reply #68 on: January 20, 2022, 04:50:55 PM »
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With just track leads to the decoder, still "shorts" as soon as power is applied, even if motor wires not connected
Rick Brodzinsky
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peteski

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Re: New ESU 58741 V5 'Kato USA' board video
« Reply #69 on: January 20, 2022, 06:48:42 PM »
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With just track leads to the decoder, still "shorts" as soon as power is applied, even if motor wires not connected

In that case some of the rectifier diodes are probably shorted, since track power is feed directly into the rectifier.  But if the H-bridge is shorted that would also cause similar symptom (since the H-bridge is feed from the bridge rectifier).  What I'm surprised about is that you can still read CVs on the programming track.  That would seem to indicate that the bridge rectifier is still working properly.

But whatever it is, the decoder is likely toasted.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2022, 06:51:34 PM by peteski »
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Cajonpassfan

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Re: New ESU 58741 V5 'Kato USA' board video
« Reply #70 on: January 20, 2022, 07:18:07 PM »
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Grrrr....totally sucks!
At least when I fry'em, I know I did something sloppy I shouldn't have and should have known better. Not knowing is a bummer.
Otto

RBrodzinsky

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Re: New ESU 58741 V5 'Kato USA' board video
« Reply #71 on: January 20, 2022, 07:36:50 PM »
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Well, the project loaded nicely to the last of these decoders I have, and I've tested 2 11x15 speakers (in parallel) in the tender.  Great sound.

Now I'm waiting to make sure I know exactly where to connect the ESU Mini PowerPak on this decoder (does the white "Charge" wire go to the pad marked +5V or the pad marked Aux6 PwrPakControl). There is more than enough room in the tender for one of these, too, don't need to stack PolyTa caps and mess up LokProgramming in the future.
Rick Brodzinsky
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RBrodzinsky

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Re: New ESU 58741 V5 'Kato USA' board video
« Reply #72 on: February 04, 2022, 02:32:50 PM »
+1
I completed my FEF a couple weeks ago, and never made a video, so thought I would share this video I made of Otto's Greyhound, which I installed yesterday and finished tuning this morning


The motor in this unit is much smoother than in the older vintage units.
Rick Brodzinsky
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peteski

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Re: New ESU 58741 V5 'Kato USA' board video
« Reply #73 on: February 04, 2022, 09:11:10 PM »
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Looks good Rick! 
Are you implying that this run of FEF-3s uses different coreless motor (or different gearing) than the previous run?

I also suspect that this loco could go faster than 50MPH at full throttle. Probably closer to 90MPH, or faster.  Did you limit the speed by CV settings, or that is that the fastest the model can do at 12V?
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RBrodzinsky

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Re: New ESU 58741 V5 'Kato USA' board video
« Reply #74 on: February 05, 2022, 12:39:05 AM »
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Specific request to set the maximum speed at 50 smph.  Done with CV5 and CV53.  My unit I have set at 80 smph, and these locos can easily run at 120 smph, as long as the track work is good. (I ran into a problem this week where my test track setup I use for all the installs got all wonky; couldn’t even run at 5 smph without derailing on the switch and the curves. This weekend is redoing that, and it is Unitrack!)

Don’t know if these are “different” motors, but the new ones I’ve now seen / worked on do seem to be much smoother than the loco I bought 5 years ago (my original video showing the CV settings).
Rick Brodzinsky
Chief Engineer - JACALAR Railroad
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