Author Topic: Rivarossi motors test run - now closed - see new "For Sale"  (Read 2519 times)

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nickelplate759

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Re: Rivarossi upgraded motors now for sale
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2021, 11:09:34 PM »
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The tip of the worm actually holds the truck in place.
George
NKPH&TS #3628

I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

mmagliaro

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Re: Rivarossi upgraded motors now for sale
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2021, 03:01:42 AM »
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The tip of the worm actually holds the truck in place.

No way.... really???  I have got to see one of these nutty things.
Still, if the end of the motor shaft were riding in a bearing in the truck plate, that should accomplish the same thing.
Or do you mean VERTICALLY?  That groove at the tip of that worm, is the only thing holding the truck
in place?

kiwi_al

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Re: Rivarossi upgraded motors now for sale
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2021, 03:12:56 AM »
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No way.... really???  I have got to see one of these nutty things.
  That groove at the tip of that worm, is the only thing holding the truck
in place?
Yes indeed it is. Once you undo the screw and slide the lock plate out the truck falls off. It also allows it to rotate. You'll have one in your hands soon !  :D :D

peteski

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Re: Rivarossi upgraded motors now for sale
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2021, 03:17:48 PM »
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Max,
the worm is the truck's pivot, and the clip that engages the grove on the worm's "nipple" is the only thing that holds the truck in place.  No other things hold the truck in.  It is a very simplistic design.

The nipple's diameter is rather small. Even if you drill  through it (leaving enough "meat" on it to still retain the truck), the ram would have such a small diameter that it would probably bend before exerting enough force to push the motor shaft out of the worm.  I guess you woudl really have one of those locos in-hand to fully assess the problem at hand.
. . . 42 . . .

mmagliaro

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Re: Rivarossi upgraded motors now for sale
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2021, 03:36:52 PM »
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Pete, I was not going to try to drill through per se.  I was going to just grind the whole front off the worm back to the teeth, leaving a nice flat surface, and then bore 1.5mm into it, so I could use a 1.5mm ram to get the worm off.

As it happens, new development.  I found one of these old motors in my stash of RR junk.  I was able to just clamp the back end of the armature shaft firmly in a smooth-jawed vise, and then push a thin wedge plate in between the back of the worm and the motor case.  That got the worm to pop right off.  The panavise jaws don't have THAT much strength, and they are smooth, so they won't deform a hardened steel motor shaft.  I think it's safe to clamp like this and pop the worm off.  And nothing inside the motor needs to be destroyed in the process.

So, it's not as bad as it seems to get it off.

If does look to me like the front nipple of the motor case, where the bearing is, has to fit INTO that hole in the top of the truck.  If that's true, then my "new style" modification with the larger brass front would not work on the E8.  I can always make one the "old way", where I did all the machining on the inside of the can, but honestly, I'd rather not because that's a lot more work and fussing to get the armature to fit correctly.

randgust

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Re: Rivarossi upgraded motors now for sale
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2021, 09:34:11 AM »
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The other 'fatal flaw' in that design was that in the FM and I think the E-unit, the powered truck had traction tires on it, and the unpowered six-wheel truck was for pickup.   On the FM I had, there were sprung  piston pickups (2) that slid on the rail surface to improve pickup - no kidding.

I'm not sure what the traction tires were made of on the one I got, or if they got contaminated with oil, or what (hey, I was 16) but they got 'lumpy'.  So given the friction on the pickup truck, the power on the front truck, and the usual cogged-motor hot start, with a train coupled this thing shook like a wet puppy and could vertically vibrate vertically right off the rails, which it did at full slip.  If you put enough cars behind it, started it up, it would literally hop off the rails.    Then, it also introduced me to my very first case of zinc pest, when the frame cracked in half around the motor.  I patched it with styrene and Goo for a while.   I still have the frame, patched and all.

Finally I decided there was no saving it and literally cut the body up for scrap.   The powered truck looked so much like a real truck (when it was stripped down) it's still memorialized by my Winslow shop building today.    If you look behind the fence, there's the truck, and beyond that, the remnants of the FM cab roof, used as a parts shed.  Oh, how I hated that thing....  http://www.randgust.com/Winshop6.jpg    I don't normally torture a locomotive, but I'll admit to dismembering this one.

Max, you're working way too hard on that one.    I considered that my introduction to POS N scale and never looked back, became a Trix and Rapido guy for mechanisms.   Stick with the steam buddy....that's worth saving.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 09:45:53 AM by randgust »

mmagliaro

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Re: Rivarossi upgraded motors now for sale
« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2021, 11:02:51 AM »
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...

Max, you're working way too hard on that one.    I considered that my introduction to POS N scale and never looked back, became a Trix and Rapido guy for mechanisms.   Stick with the steam buddy....that's worth saving.

The E8 isn't a great design, but I've had a few requests for putting my rebuilt motors into the E8, so I wanted to check out if it was feasible.  At least now I know I can get the worm off, so for anybody who wants to resurrect an E8, I'll just transplant the worm onto a rebuilt motor.  I'm offering motors, after all, not complete rebuilds of these engines.

nickelplate759

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Re: Rivarossi upgraded motors now for sale
« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2021, 12:18:31 PM »
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If someone really wants to resurrect a Rivarossi/Atlas E8, the shell is a drop-on fit to the Concor/Kato (and later Concor/China) E8 (by design).   I believe the shell also fits on the old Atlas/Roco E7 chassis.

For some reason the RR E8 tracks much better than the C-liner.  I think it's primarily because the power truck has a longer wheelbase and that mitigates its tendency to hop the rails.  The C-liner is terrible in that respect.
George
NKPH&TS #3628

I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

kiwi_al

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Re: Rivarossi upgraded motors now for sale
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2021, 02:43:01 AM »
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Hi Max,
The package is on it's way  :D :D

Alister

Sokramiketes

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Re: Rivarossi upgraded motors now for sale
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2021, 09:49:05 AM »
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So, are there any articles or forum topics on other upgrades to the 0-8-0?  Like pick-up, or detailing?

The IHB prototype is one of my favorite steam engines, and I've had a couple squirreled away for a some day project.  Max has inspired me to pull one out and work on it. 

mmagliaro

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Re: Rivarossi upgraded motors now for sale
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2021, 12:58:10 PM »
+3
So, are there any articles or forum topics on other upgrades to the 0-8-0?  Like pick-up, or detailing?

The IHB prototype is one of my favorite steam engines, and I've had a couple squirreled away for a some day project.  Max has inspired me to pull one out and work on it.

EDIT 1: 7-Mar-2021
------------------------
I thought of some more important tweaks you should always do to Rivarossi steam.  I  just edited this list so these things are all in one place.

1. Check the brass worm carrier that is embedded in the frame on the 4-6-2 and 2-8-2.  If it can move around in there, even when
the brass holding screw from the top of the frame is tight, you need to fix this.  It's common and it lets the whole worm assembly
slap and rattle around in there which makes noise and upsets the gear mesh.  You want that worm to stay put so it's quiet and so you can fine-tune the drivers and gears to be consistently smooth, which you can't do if the worm keeps changing position.  Try just taking out the brass holding screw from the top and flat-file that area of the frame so the screw can go in just a little more.  Then push that carrier INTO the frame as far as it will go and tighten the screw.  Letting that brass screw go in further won't hurt anything else.  In fact, it's so common for that thing to keep the shell artifically propped up in the air that screwing it down further is usually an improvement.

2. Check the plastic drive coupling forks and make sure their tips can't "bottom out" against the opposing fork.  You don't want
the motor or worm to be able to shove each other back and forth.  Allowing them independent lateral motion is a key
asset in the 4-6-2 and 2-8-2.

3. This one is harder, but if you are game, do it.  If the worm in the carrier has more than, say, .010" lateral back-and-forth play
in it, remove the brass holding screw on top, pull the whole carrier out, get the worm and shaft out from inside the carrier and add
thrust washers to get rid of all that play.  This is a VERY common malady, and it makes the RR steam run noisy and inconsistent.  Actually getting that worm out of the brass carrier is difficult.  One end of the carrier is held in  place by 4 swaged tabs.  I usually just grind them out of the way.  Then you can use a fine screwdriver or knife blade to pry that end off the carrier and get the worm out.  When you put it back together, you'll find that the end snaps in so tightly that the swages are unnecessary, but a drop or two of Loctite or epoxy is a good idea.

None of these 3 items affects the 0-8-0, because there is no worm carrier and no drive forks.

Original Post:
===========

I don't know if there are other articles or forum topics.  There were a few nice pieces in the NTrak Steam Locomotive Addendum books for 2016 and 2017, written by Ed Tougaw, on upgrading Rivarossi steam with Bachmann tenders to get all-wheel pickup.   

Other than the tender pickup, which is crucial if you want these old engines to run with the smoothness of modern steam, and the motor, here's a hurried brain dump of things I do to these.  You need to remove the main crank screw and take off all the rods.  Save everything in a cup or a ziplock and take photos before you start so you remember what goes where.  THEN:

1. Take out the drivers and idler gears, and polish the bottom, sides, and edges of the frame slots by running strips of 2000 grit sandpaper through them like dental floss.  All those surfaces are rough compared the "kato smooth" channels we are all used to.
2. Do the same thing to the crosshead guides (the valve sliders)
3. Take the two copper washers off the sides of each idler gear, and then polish the SIDES (not the TEETH!) of the idlers by rubbing them in a circular pattern on a piece of 2000 grit sandpaper placed flat on a table or a piece of glass (the flatter the better)
4. Use thin strips of 2000 grit to polish the DRIVER axle surfaces where they spin in the frame slots.  It will never be as good as hardened steel axles spinning in phosphor bronze bearings, but just a few swipes all the way around those brass axles helps.

Once you get all that stuff smooth and you have an all-wheel pickup tender behind it, and a good motor in it, you can get into the weeds if you want to....

The idler gears have way too much side-to-side slop in the frame.  Find some .005" thick phosphor bronze washers from NWSL (or stainless ones, which you can find on eBay).  Put one on each side *in addition to* the copper ones that are already on there.  With the two washers on each side, you should be able to drop that idler down in the slot and have just a wee bit of side-to-side wiggle but no more, and it should still spin freely.

Speaking of spinning.... many of these old RR chassis have had some Zamac "Creep", even if they aren't cracked or disintegrating.  The metal swells up, causing the idler gears and drivers to bind in their slots.  It's often so bad that you cannot get the axles or idlers up and out of those slots without prying them out.  Be careful not to ruin them, but if you cannot freely spin them and lift them out, work them out with a small screwdriver and tweezers, and then gently flat-file the sides of the slot until you can JUST freely drop them back in.  NO MORE.  You don't want to introduce slop in there.  The axles have to JUST FIT without binding.

The same is true of the little U-shaped plastic retainers that hold the idlers in place.  They might be so tight that you have to force them out.  If so, pry them out and file their slots until they just drop in freely.  It's important that those retainers be able to wiggle and float, but just a hair.  They keep the idler in place to correctly mesh with the driver gears, but if they are jammed tight in there, they don't work as well.

On ALL these filed slots, follow up with swipes of 2000 grit sandpaper to polish the surfaces when you are done.

One way to know you've got this all smooth is to see how slow you can run the engine on its back.  Run it with just the motor and the first idler.  Watch how slow and smooth you can make it run.  Then add a driver, then add another driver and idler, and so on.  When you take a bit hit in smoothness, stop and figure out why.   On the 0-8-0, you should be able to run the rearmost 3 drivers with their idlers WITHOUT the gear plate on and not have any of them try to push or lift up and out, causing a jam.  Yes, the plastic U retainers and cover plate are meant to prevent this, but if everything is really smooth, you should be able to get 3 drivers to run without the retainers or cover.  Getting the 4th to run with no cover is tough.  There is usually enough friction by that point that something is going to lift up and jam without the cover plate, so test with the cover plate ON at that point.

One last suggestion: don't be tempted to start filing the teeth on those brass gears.  They seem to have a square cut at the end, but that's how they SHOULD be.  If you start filing and sanding the actual teeth, most likely you will just make it worse.  The only time I do this is if I spot an obvious nick or burr on a tooth, which does happen.  Just use some swipes of a strip of sandpaper to get rid of it.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 06:22:34 AM by mmagliaro »

Sokramiketes

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Re: Rivarossi upgraded motors now for sale
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2021, 02:56:21 PM »
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Thank Max, that helps get me started.  I'll try to track down the steam annuals as I haven't been good about picking them up. 

mmagliaro

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Re: Rivarossi upgraded motors now for sale
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2021, 08:45:08 PM »
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Thank Max, that helps get me started.  I'll try to track down the steam annuals as I haven't been good about picking them up.
https://nrail.org/Sys/Store/Products/58691  2016, print form
https://nrail.org/Sys/Store/Products/58692 2017, print form

You can also buy these as electronic Kindle editions on Amazon.




august2281

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Re: Rivarossi upgraded motors now for sale
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2021, 10:28:58 AM »
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I have no less than 20 Atlas engines - all from 1968.  Most still run and am in the process of doing a permanent consist of 6 identical pairs using only one decoder per pair.  The idea here is to provide twice the pick-up and it works remarkably well!  Have done one set and the darn thing actually works!  But low speed performance is still very poor but better than it used to be.  Will these new motors provide better slow speed performance do you believe?

Mark5

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Re: Rivarossi upgraded motors now for sale
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2021, 11:34:16 AM »
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https://nrail.org/Sys/Store/Products/58691  2016, print form
https://nrail.org/Sys/Store/Products/58692 2017, print form

You can also buy these as electronic Kindle editions on Amazon.

The only one I'd be interested in is the N Scale Steam Locomotive Information Book (8th Prtg), https://nrail.org/Sys/Store/Products/58683

If there are specific locos that you are targeting - here's the cumulative index (free): https://nrail.org/resources/Documents/NTRAK-Steam-Annual-2017-index%20.pdf

Mark