Foobtasticification of Bachmann Shorty Passenger Cars for PRR

[narrowminded]

Per the title, I'm planning on making up a PRR passenger train for my HCD, tight radius layout.  I know, there's nothing right about them but long heavyweights on this layout look downright silly.  So, it's this or no passenger train.   These are cars that have been languishing for years in boxes of miscellaneous n scale stuff from a brother so I decided to put them back in service, detailed to represent typical passenger car features and, to the extent possible, PRR styles and colors.  My goal is to have a decent representation of a passenger train running on tight radius turns that the junk box and some effort (not too much) can accomplish.  With 3D prints and parts and components drawn from existing supplies and tools, I think this can be accomplished. 

I have 5 passenger cars, one combine, and one observation.  Overall they're in good shape with the exception of one passenger car which shows some lettering wear.  It might be salvageable but I will use it for the test piece for all of the modifications I will be doing.  I will remove the silhouettes in the windows, repaint the roofs inside and out for light bleed as well as changing two of them from silver to black.  Bodies don't need to be repainted but the passenger cars could use renumbered. 

An interior LED light board with necessary components and capacitors for running from track power and eight wheel pickup with wheel back wipers will be made.  Interior colors will need to be chosen and to the extent possible should be plausible PRR colors.  I have some short dummy couplers in the truck mounted boxes that close couple them nicely but might consider body mounts, especially if the ride height is too high as determined by opinions from all of the experts.   I wasn't planning on diaphragms but if it comes together nicely, maybe I will.  I'd need suggestions on that one and one of the suggestions could be, don't waste the money.

A starting list of needs includes:

1) I need to replace the cannibalized trucks from two pieces and replace the gray trucks for black ones on two more.  For this I will beg on folks to look through their scrap boxes for truck parts, complete as possible.  Also, would be interested in any old complete cars for parts or, if not too bad, to add to the fleet.

2) Design interiors for all of them.  Seats, one per window, and maybe a lavatory at each end for the passenger cars.  I'm guessing they would have had those jump style seat backs for seating direction choice and so might make them in opposing pairs and call that done.  Interior colors need to be chosen.  Maybe dark brown seats, cream or that very light green walls.  Maybe above the windows in cream and below in green. 

3) The combine I figure to be similar to the passenger cars for the seating area but what about the baggage end? Wood? Metal?

4)  Do observation cars have seating and furnishings different from the passenger cars?  I could use suggestions or photos for some indication of that if it's not just a repeat of the passenger car style. 

That's a starter list.  More will surface, I'm sure.  Advice and old parts, black trucks specifically, as complete as possible, will be welcome.

[Lemosteam]

You have a printer, right? design some trucks to recycle the electric pickup. Measure the axle spacing and shrink the length of a 2DP5 styled side frame to match the pickup spacing on the original trucks. Design the bolster center beam of the truck to mate in the same fashion as the original. I don’t know the design of these trucks though.

[Maletrain]

I don't think I ever rode in a Pennsy observation car, so what I am suggesting is not necessarily prototypical for Pennsy.  But, most observation cars that I know of were "chair cars" or "lounge cars" or "smoking cars", all of which featured individual chairs facing the isle, except at the rear by the observation platform, where there was usually an athwart-ship row facing backward, with passages around the ends instead of down the middle.  There might be a row facing forward just in front of the row facing backward.  There might be a chair or 2 facing the isle between the backward looking seats and the actual back wall of the car.  Ahead of that athwart ship row, the chairs may have tables between pairs of them, or not, and those chairs might swivel, or not.  At the head end of those observation cars, there might be just a restroom, or maybe as much as a small kitchen to serve snacks. 

For my own shorty observation car, I intend to make it a lounge with a snack bar, smoking allowed in the early 1950s.  That involves blanking a few windows and adding a fan. 

But, when working with a shorty car, which is really only 60 scale feet, I don't want to make it look toy-like by trying to put too much in a small space. 

I'll be using the Atlas short cars, eventually, but I am starting with the Bachmann "shorties" like you are.  I got some coach seats from Shapeways, long ago.  But, you can print your own, right?  One thing I did not like about the Bachmann roof is the restroom vents molded into the sides of the clerestory.  Since you have a printer, you could print new roofs, but I am still thinking about getting rid of those cast-on "bumps" and camouflaging the damaged area.

[davefoxx]

Per the title, I'm planning on making up a PRR passenger train for my HCD, tight radius layout.  I know, there's nothing right about them but long heavyweights on this layout look downright silly.  So, it's this or no passenger train.  

I don't know why you're worried about long passenger cars on your HCD, tight radius layout. 



DFF

[narrowminded]

You have a printer, right? design some trucks to recycle the electric pickup. Measure the axle spacing and shrink the length of a 2DP5 styled side frame to match the pickup spacing on the original trucks. Design the bolster center beam of the truck to mate in the same fashion as the original. I don’t know the design of these trucks though.

The original trucks fit and ride well so just off the top of my head, at this point, I think that will be more than I'm bargaining for for this project and for future servicing.  I see a relatively clean and robust way to install the wheel wipers to the original truck design, too.   

Two of the cars were converted to Micro-Trains trucks and they don't fit the screw pins properly, definitely ride high, and just rock and roll down the track.  I'm sure I could fix that but the originals perform well and also look like they'll take the wheel wipers nicely.  I'm not inclined to rock that boat.

What I am suspicious of is the ride height being a little high.  It's just a visual and when I say a little, I do mean a little, like maybe .020" max.  This could also be for the body clearance to the truck mounted coupler box.  If I was to change that height I would probably cut off the truck mounted boxes and go to body mounted couplers but there may be some clearance issues with the truck swing.  I guess to that end, is the ride height even an issue and then, if lowering is warranted,  what's the shortest MT coupler box in case that becomes an issue. 

[narrowminded]

I don't think I ever rode in a Pennsy observation car, so what I am suggesting is not necessarily prototypical for Pennsy.  But, most observation cars that I know of were "chair cars" or "lounge cars" or "smoking cars", all of which featured individual chairs facing the isle, except at the rear by the observation platform, where there was usually an athwart-ship row facing backward, with passages around the ends instead of down the middle.  There might be a row facing forward just in front of the row facing backward.  There might be a chair or 2 facing the isle between the backward looking seats and the actual back wall of the car.  Ahead of that athwart ship row, the chairs may have tables between pairs of them, or not, and those chairs might swivel, or not.  At the head end of those observation cars, there might be just a restroom, or maybe as much as a small kitchen to serve snacks. 

For my own shorty observation car, I intend to make it a lounge with a snack bar, smoking allowed in the early 1950s.  That involves blanking a few windows and adding a fan. 

But, when working with a shorty car, which is really only 60 scale feet, I don't want to make it look toy-like by trying to put too much in a small space.

This sounds like what I'm attempting to execute.  The tables might be small, round?  Would they have table lamps, too?

One thing I did not like about the Bachmann roof is the restroom vents molded into the sides of the clerestory.  Since you have a printer, you could print new roofs, but I am still thinking about getting rid of those cast-on "bumps" and camouflaging the damaged area.

I won't make new roofs as they are more than a roof, part of the basic construction and I don't need to work the detail that a redesign would require.  I'm not sure what you mean about the "cast on bumps".  Mine have what looks like a low profile hatch/ door in one end of each roof, approximately centered side to side.  But I would consider adding details like vents and such.  Anybody have any thoughts on that?

[narrowminded]

Would there be end of train lights in the observation car?  I've seen such at the two top corners on some cars but don't know what might be appropriate for this style.  I would consider provisions for those in the light board design. 

Edit add:  I found some pictures that showed a single larger light centered in the roof end and then two more on each body corner, about at the rivet line, and look like the standard marker lights as might be seen on a caboose.  They also seemed to be all red lenses facing rearward and to the side.  Couldn't see if they faced forward, too.  Does this seem right for one of these foobs?

[peteski]

This sounds like what I'm attempting to execute.  The tables might be small, round?  Would they have table lamps, too?

Did someone mention N scale table lamps? 

[Maletrain]

Would there be end of train lights in the observation car?  I've seen such at the two top corners on some cars but don't know what might be appropriate for this style.  I would consider provisions for those in the light board design. 

Edit add:  I found some pictures that showed a single larger light centered in the roof end and then two more on each body corner, about at the rivet line, and look like the standard marker lights as might be seen on a caboose.  They also seemed to be all red lenses facing rearward and to the side.  Couldn't see if they faced forward, too.  Does this seem right for one of these foobs?

Regarding end of train lights: the few pictures I have of open platform observation cars that had not been modernized show either no marker lights (probably because it is daylight and I can't see the brackets) or lanterns like we saw on a caboose.  Once modernizations were started, then I am seeing built-in smaller lights were the lantern brackets were located, and sometimes a big light centered in the end of the roof right above the platform.  The lanterns on the as-built open-ended observations were sometimes at the height of the rivet line above the window, and sometimes just below the roof line.  On the Bachmannn shorties, I would go with lanterns or nothing.

[narrowminded]

Did someone mention N scale table lamps? 

Yeah, like that!   The only thing missing is glass globes with goldfish swimming in them.

But really, would something like that be appropriate in an observation car?  Vintage late '40's thru '60's, maybe?  I also see the end of train lights that look like bullets flush mounted to the side.  What vintage would something like that be vs: the small lanterns?  And would the single center light in the roof be appropriate with them?  The roof light wouldn't be hard to do compared to the small lanterns.

[peteski]

Yeah, like that!   The only thing missing is glass globes with goldfish swimming in them.

But really, would something like that be appropriate in an observation car?  Vintage late '40's thru '60's, maybe?  I also see the end of train lights that look like bullets flush mounted to the side.  What vintage would something like that be vs: the small lanterns?  And would the single center light in the roof be appropriate with them?  The roof light wouldn't be hard to do compared to the small lanterns.

I'm not PRR historian, so I can't really give you any accurate info. But then again, you are already calling your train a "foob", so couldn't anything go?
That car where I installed those table lamps is just a smoothside observation car from Con-Cor.  It is a part of Powhatan Arrow train pulled by Bachmann N&W #611 4-8-4.  The train probably ran in the '50s.   I don't know how a PRR heavyweight observation car interior would look like.  Same with the EOT marker lights - not sure.  But I'm fairly certain that the center mounted light on the observation cars was not EOT marker. I believe it was an emergency light.

30 years ago, when I detailed the interior of that car, I didn't do any research about the prototype - I just winged-it. I wanted to see if I could construct working table lamps and have constant lighting circuit installed in the car.  It was designed to run on DC (had a small NiCad battery in the car that was charged from the track).

I wonder if your prototype-related questions would have better chances of being answered in the Prototype section of the forum?  Just applying "peteski logic". 

[Maletrain]

For the prototypes that I research (mostly B&O, not Pennsy), the thing that seems to determine the marker lights on observation cars was more a matter of how much the cars had been modified than when they were running.  At least on the B&O, there was constant upgrading of some passenger equipment for the mainline primary name trains, with the less upgraded equipment getting handed down to secondary trains, branch line trains, and eventually MOW service. On the B&O, open platform cars in passenger service seem to have become a rarity by the 1940s - most were modified to closed end or put into business car service with some upgrades visible on the exterior, either way.  It was only on those modified cars (with visible features like closed ends or at least thermopane windows, etc.) that I have seen marker lights other than lanterns.

So, if it were me running a Bachmann Shorty observation car with an open end platform in B&O paint, I would probably leave the end as-is and run it in daylight, neglecting to model the brackets for the lantern markers.  But, you are running Pennsy and seem to be interested in lighting, so probably not your desired course. 

So, I have to go with Peteski's recommendation: foobize it the way that makes you the happiest.  If you have a desire to make it at least plausible to a visiting Pennsy affectionado, then I suggest asking these questions on a Pennsy historical group.  I use that type of group for my B&O research, and they are really helpful.  Searching Groups.io for "Pennsylvania Railroad" turns up several groups that should be able to help you decide what set of features makes you comfortable.

But, as I am sure you are aware, this is probably the best place possible to find out how to model those features, once you decide what they are going to be.

[narrowminded]

To clarify the intent, I know these aren't prototypical but they are a workable length so they were chosen to be detailed and run.  I will enjoy at least having a passenger train to run with some of the steam but the push to do this is especially for kids and guests, none of whom know the prototypical details but can identify a passenger car's general shape, look, and color, if only from the movies.  But some will recognize the weirdness of a long car in a tight turn.   At least I will and that's all I see when running the old heavyweights.  (I have a bunch of them, too.)  I want them mechanically reliable and with lighting, an interior, and some proper details, all to the style of the time knowing that none of it will represent an actual PRR car.  That's the goal. 

I want to have a lit interior, maybe end of train lights, maybe some typical roof features (or not), and anything else that I or the wisdom here might identify.  On all of these modifications I have to choose something so to the extent possible I might as well pick something plausible.  A good example is paint colors.  The effort of painting it at all remains the same, might as well strive for appropriate colors.  End of train lights, if doable, might as well be to an actual type that might have been used, etc.

[narrowminded]

For the prototypes that I research (mostly B&O, not Pennsy), the thing that seems to determine the marker lights on observation cars was more a matter of how much the cars had been modified than when they were running.  At least on the B&O, there was constant upgrading of some passenger equipment for the mainline primary name trains, with the less upgraded equipment getting handed down to secondary trains, branch line trains, and eventually MOW service. On the B&O, open platform cars in passenger service seem to have become a rarity by the 1940s - most were modified to closed end or put into business car service with some upgrades visible on the exterior, either way.  It was only on those modified cars (with visible features like closed ends or at least thermopane windows, etc.) that I have seen marker lights other than lanterns.

So, if it were me running a Bachmann Shorty observation car with an open end platform in B&O paint, I would probably leave the end as-is and run it in daylight, neglecting to model the brackets for the lantern markers.  But, you are running Pennsy and seem to be interested in lighting, so probably not your desired course. 

So, I have to go with Peteski's recommendation: foobize it the way that makes you the happiest.  If you have a desire to make it at least plausible to a visiting Pennsy affectionado, then I suggest asking these questions on a Pennsy historical group.  I use that type of group for my B&O research, and they are really helpful.  Searching Groups.io for "Pennsylvania Railroad" turns up several groups that should be able to help you decide what set of features makes you comfortable.

But, as I am sure you are aware, this is probably the best place possible to find out how to model those features, once you decide what they are going to be.

Thanks for all of the thoughts you've been offering.   It's helpful. 

I have now seen pictures of cars with the lantern style lights, which might be cool but a little bit of a challenge to execute, as well as simple round lights in the rear face of the body, upper outboard corners.  I'll guess those would be more appropriate for something by the '40's and beyond and would be much simpler to execute.  On the other hand, the lanterns off the side would be cool and I could use that for a practice run for later caboose efforts.  With that said, I think it'll be lights in the rear wall.  

[thomasjmdavis]

The nice folks who study the PRR have put online the elevations and floorplans of most of the PRR passenger fleet.  Although you are using "shortie" cars, these can give you ideas on how to arrange interiors, and some exterior details, and potential simple mods like blocking out a window here or there-
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=pass&sz=sm&fr=