Question for Manufacturers

[ednadolski]

I'd rather buy an exact duplicate of NKP GP9 521 right off the shelf (Oh!  If only it were so!) ...

I totally agree with your point about time, but if we could do that sort of thing, wouldn't that (to some degree at least) defeat the purpose of modeling in the first place?

I think that a core element to the appeal of model building is that when you do the work, you put a piece of yourself into whatever you create, and you get to share that with others.  This applies regardless of the actual subject, or the level of detail, or the skill that you apply, etc.

I'm just speaking for myself of course, but if we could just simply buy 'perfect' pre-made models, then it all just devolves into another exercise in "buy more stuff"  (one of the reasons that MR mag lost its appeal to me).

Ed

[wazzou]

The world needs more athearn blue boxes! When I was in high school and in HO scale, this is what got me into the hobby. A solid model that could be customized in as detailed a unit as you could want.

I have pretty fond memories of going to LHS’s as a kid and seeing shelves with stacks and stacks of Athearn Blue Box kits with the white labeling telling you what the kit was and the road names.

[wm3798]

Always a fun discussion.
I guess what brought it to mind has been my hunt for those old-school retro models.  You pop a search into the E-tubes and you get GP9s from earlier days... Rapido coffee grinders with gigantic flanges and handrails as big as a baseball bat.  The venerable Atlas/Rocos that were the right size but on the wrong drives, and the Atlas Katos that were the wrong size on the right drives...  but any and all can still be had for around $25 to $50, and apart from the few that are completely shagged out, usually they have spent most of their lives in a box in the bottom of a drawer, or were run for a few hours then put away.  So it's a good source for New Old Stock.  But as noted above, the models have their shortcomings.

I've never been keen on the hyper accurate detailing being the responsibility of the manufacturer.  To me it adds unnecessarily to the cost, and stifles availability.  We also won't touch the third rail of how it may or may not down the hobby, or at least the hobbyist...  But I digress...  There's a saying in the design and construction business, which is always full of givens, druthers, and compromises... Don't let the pursuit of perfection get in the way of the good.  I think that may be where we are.

A quick scan of a couple of on-line discount houses reveals a paucity of undecorated models.  BLW has a few in their clearance aisle, and MB Klein has a couple of painted unlettered steam engines, but no diesels among a smattering of undec autos, freight cars and passenger equipment... only a single page within their voluminous inventory.  Evidence that either modeling is very strong and undecs sell out quickly, or that there isn't enough of a market to offer much... not sure.

I did find an old school GP7 (but no 9s) I might get... non-DCC, rapido couplers, and a paint scheme I won't miss once it emerges from the cocktail of paint strippers...

It'll be close enough... which, as I noted earlier, is good enough for me.

Lee

[Ed Kapuscinski]

So to Lee's original point:
That actually seems to be Bachmann's strategy.
Relatively generic engines that are "always in stock".

We give them crap because they're not perfect, but I think they're exactly what you're talking about here.

And with the upcoming GP38-2, that's gonna be major.

If you want to upgrade one you can. If not, you still have a decent engine.

[NorsemanJack]

It's my fault.  I used to buy a lot of stuff.  Now I don't.  I've sold more than I've bought over the past several years, and expect that trend to continue as I age and further downsize.  Apparently, I'm not the only one, as the number one reason for reduced supply is usually diminished demand.

[Maletrain]

Regarding scratch building in the N scale world:
1. At least to me, N scale is more about modeling a railroad than a train or a car.  In comparison, modeling in O or G scale, or even S scale, is more about modeling trains or cars, simply because almost nobody has the room to model a railroad in those scales.  So, to me, buying an RTR car in N or Z scales is almost like buying a detail part for a car in O scale.  Both could be scratch built, but there are the issues of time available and who will notice the added detail in the intended final use?
2. Scratch building to the level of marco photographic realism is much harder in N scale than in larger scales.  So, scratch building can actually take longer per car in N scale than in larger scales.
3. Availability of detail parts in much more limited in N scale than in larger, more popular scales, so "scratch" building is more difficult, because you need to actually scratch more of the parts.  Extremely few models are entirely built from scratch.
So, my intent is to get an operational railroad with trains that approach realistic lengths with respectable looking cars, and spend my scratch building time and efforts on things that are noticeably unique, like a B&O I-1 or I-5 caboose, that nobody will probably ever produce as a commercial item.  Making a better detailed coal car than MTL or Atlas makes just doesn't seem like it will stand out in a 50-car train.

[wm3798]

... and spend my scratch building time and efforts on things that are noticeably unique, like a B&O I-1 or I-5 caboose, that nobody will probably ever produce as a commercial item. 

If I can figure out how to design for the 3-D printer I have, an I-5 is high on the list...  See most post elsewhere in the N scale forum...  I'm hoping someone has already done the hard work!!
Lee

[ncbqguy]

I have pretty fond memories of going to LHS’s as a kid and seeing shelves with stacks and stacks of Athearn Blue Box kits with the white labeling telling you what the kit was and the road names.

Yes, and I remember 39 cent a gallon gas, getting a free Sunday paper, drinking glasses or some other premium, and S&H Green Stamps with a fill up on Saturday night......
Athearn blue box cars were always around because there was Irv and Clarence and really no other real competition serving the HO market.  Each town had multiple stores selling the same kits.....and there were more distributors actually having inventory than there are decent LHS  today.   Limited runs were done back in the day...enough of the same product to last another 3 years!   So it seemed like there was continuous product.
Now everybody wants NEW stuff...roadnames, paint jobs and road number variety.   
You now have a wide range of world-class players supplying the market with more frequent, more diverse products.   Plastic Baldwin Centipedes in N?   !!!
Atlas has very decent GP7, GP9, GP18, GP20 tooling.   They cycle through their wide selection of product faster than others. 
The market will not tolerate “generic” locos.  Some mentioned here would sell for ten times their MSRP if brought back and nobody would buy them.
I agree that not all stuff has to be super detailed premium grade but the base cost for a stripped down loco vs. the small incremental amount to bring it up to what will actually sell.
Charlie Vlk

[wm3798]

Good old Charlie.  The proverbial turd in the punch bowl!

All valid points.  I still don't like them.  But they're valid...
Lee

[squirrelhunter]

So to Lee's original point:
That actually seems to be Bachmann's strategy.
Relatively generic engines that are "always in stock".

We give them crap because they're not perfect, but I think they're exactly what you're talking about here.

And with the upcoming GP38-2, that's gonna be major.

If you want to upgrade one you can. If not, you still have a decent engine.

2 problems with your Bachmann theory-

Their GP40 had major issues (fuel tank) that would keep it from looking right next to nicer Atlas/Kato/IM etc locos

They don't seem to be making their newer diesels constantly, just in bigger runs the linger longer in the supply chain than stuff from other manufacturers, partly due to absurd pricing even on discount.

The gold standard of good entry level locomotive that could grow with you in the hobby were the Life Like GP18/BL2/SD7 type engines. They were cheap and could stand beside the higher end stuff.

[squirrelhunter]

Atlas has very decent GP7, GP9, GP18, GP20 tooling.   They cycle through their wide selection of product faster than others. 
The market will not tolerate “generic” locos.  Some mentioned here would sell for ten times their MSRP if brought back and nobody would buy them.
I agree that not all stuff has to be super detailed premium grade but the base cost for a stripped down loco vs. the small incremental amount to bring it up to what will actually sell.
Charlie Vlk

But thats the whole issue! The Atlas GP7/9/18 engines are generic beyond phase differences, no road specific detailing to jack the cost up and tooling that has already been at least somewhat amortized by multiple runs in the past.

I'm not asking for them to be dumb like Life Like and flood the market to pick them up at a fire sale.

I'm asking for them to do at least a small run every other year with a mix of Class 1 staples like SP, PRR, ATSF and new scenes from shortlines or less common class 1's like MKT or RDG.

[CBQ Fan]

I think there is merit for a line of basic generic engines and train cars for starting in the hobby. Something to get you hooked, runs well, looks nice but available and cost effective. And the modelers will evolve to whatever level of detail and specifics that make them happy.  Entry level stuff gets sold, passed on or stored away for for sentimental reasons.

[randgust]

One of the paridigm shifts in Shapeways is that there's a lot of really neat detail parts out there, making up big-time for the gap in parts from some of the historic and conventional suppliers.

One of the reasons I bit off my D16sb 4-4-0 project is the amount of PRR details parts out there in N.   Wouldn't be possible without it.   Same with my Jamco 4-6-2 rebuild, the trailing truck and the cab came off of Shapeways.   So I think there's a lot of potential out there now to take a 'generic' model up to high standards now with what I see.  I also found some really nice details for my Texas State Railroad ex-VIA FP9A.   But their search system is still just the worst.  I've found more through Google than their own search.

The other neat thing about RP printing is that once you get a design, there's at least the potential to reprint it in a different scale, although some things don't translate particularly well.  But I've learned to ask designers if they'll give it a shot.

But, this also assumes that you're willing to open a jar of paint.

[thomasjmdavis]

One of the paridigm shifts in Shapeways is that there's a lot of really neat detail parts out there, making up big-time for the gap in parts from some of the historic and conventional suppliers.

Now....if shapeways could just revise their search engine so that a search for "N scale ATSF detail parts" brought up some N scale ATSF detail parts....

The only way I find anything on shapeways is for someone to post a link to the part.

But my favorite production method is the one used by ATSFnscalemodels - where he makes masters via Shapeways, does all the cleaning and touch up, and then makes resin castings from those cleaned up masters- the resulting models are less expensive (because they are not being individually printed), and he can mix resin castings, additional 3D print details, and brass etchings, as appropriate.  The Keystone Details kits that mix 3D prints with etched parts are also very nice- allowing for the best use of both types of product.  Can't imagine a .005" thick  FUD baggage car door surviving installation, but in brass, no problem.

[brokemoto]

I think there is merit for a line of basic generic engines and train cars for starting in the hobby.

There was a discussion, at one point, on the old Atlas Board about the "Entry-Level F-Unit" of legend, song and story.  HO had two:  Varney and Athearn Blue Box, although Varney went out of business while Athearn continued for several years.  The initial LLs were from the old Varney dies, but, they were not of very good quality.

We have seen two items close to that proverbial "Entry-Level F-Unit" that had both lower price and decent quality:  the B-MANN SPECTRUM F-7 and the MP FP-7.  There were two versions of the MP.  I did buy the "trainset" version just to see what it was like.  It was wired backwards.  The B-mann SPECTRUMS were a little high to be considered on the level of the Blue Box and the Varneys, but, the street prices were not bad, in the end.

A valid point has been raised by another poster about new hobbyists' wanting to buy what they see.  As boys and young men, we bought these F-units because we saw them.  Could it be that what we really want is an "Entry-Level GP-40" or some similar four axle?  You do want a four axle, as many first pike curves tend to be sharp, thus making six axles impractical.  The boys and young men of to-day are not seeing F-units, because they are all now air conditioners and refrigerators as well as a Ford Fusion, or two not to mention re-bar.

Despite that, the depictions of railroad equipment in the kiddie books and on kiddie shows are often steam.  If there are diesels, they do resemble F-units, so, do we really want F-units, still?

Whatever it is, be it this diesel or that or even a steam locomotive, you do want something that is both relatively inexpensive but durable, as were the Varney and Athearn Blue Box of our youth,  Even if it does change:  this time it is F-units; in a few years it is GP-40s (as there are many rebuilt examples that still work);  in a few more years it is GP-9s (more than a few of those rebuilt and still working).  Similar for steam:  it is an 0-6-0 this time, a 2-8-0 that time and a 4-6-0 the other time.  As long as there is something available that is durable, relatively inexpensive and has more speeds than very fast, stilll-too-fast and not-at-all, as did much of the N scale power of our youth.

You want the same for rolling stock, although Atlas does a pretty good job of that with its Trainman® line.