FireBox: A Tiny DCC Train Controller

[Ed Kapuscinski]

The great irony to all of this is that the issue isn't the actual actions that were taken.

I think everyone knows that Kickstarter stuff is always a bit of a gamble. Sometimes things work out. Sometimes they don't.

But the problem is the way it was all handled. Leading people on that everything was going well, posting progress updates with future plans, etc... And then just pulling the plug, asking people to violate the way the system was supposed to work, sending poorly worded and thought through communications, and then going dark.

@dcutting is a young guy. We were all that age once, and we've all made our share of mistakes. It's not the mistake that defines you though, it's how you handle it and what you learn from it that does. It takes a lot of courage to say "I ******** up", but it gets you a lot more respect than not doing it.

[pdx1955]

Personally ,  what doomed this effort and the past ones was time and letting enthusiasm  override the ability  to provide  on the basis of turning  a hobby passion into a business  venture .  I've done the the engineering  school thing and frankly  all the hobby time I had was to read the monthly  MR. He just needs to finish school, get employed and then figure  out the time available  along with funds if he wants to restart. This will also allow  for reflection and growing  which is significant  in the  college and soon after years, so hopefully  the next venture  will be more successful  and run to completion.

[mmagliaro]

The great irony to all of this is that the issue isn't the actual actions that were taken.

I think everyone knows that Kickstarter stuff is always a bit of a gamble. Sometimes things work out. Sometimes they don't.

But the problem is the way it was all handled. Leading people on that everything was going well, posting progress updates with future plans, etc... And then just pulling the plug, asking people to violate the way the system was supposed to work, sending poorly worded and thought through communications, and then going dark.

@dcutting is a young guy. We were all that age once, and we've all made our share of mistakes. It's not the mistake that defines you though, it's how you handle it and what you learn from it that does. It takes a lot of courage to say "I ***** up", but it gets you a lot more respect than not doing it.

Ed,
I agree with everything you said, except for one very important point.  Beyond handling it badly, dcutting is keeping peoples' money.  I guess that's part of "handling", but it's a very different part.  It's stealing.  If  he apologized and said, "Look, I should have let you all know I was falling behind and that things were going badly sooner.  I'm sorry.  Here's all your money back", nobody would be upset.  But he did the "handling badly" and then kept everybody's money.  Ewwwwww.  And surely by now, he has read this thread and knows people are furious at him.  I can't excuse that with being young. 

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Ed,
I agree with everything you said, except for one very important point.  Beyond handling it badly, dcutting is keeping peoples' money.  I guess that's part of "handling", but it's a very different part.  It's stealing.  If  he apologized and said, "Look, I should have let you all know I was falling behind and that things were going badly sooner.  I'm sorry.  Here's all your money back", nobody would be upset.  But he did the "handling badly" and then kept everybody's money.  Ewwwwww.  And surely by now, he has read this thread and knows people are furious at him.  I can't excuse that with being young. 

I had typed up a post about how there are risks to funding a thing on Kickstarter, how it wasn't guaranteed, etc...

And then I read this: https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/accountability-on-kickstarter

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.

See, @dcutting 's big mistake was offering completed devices as rewards. Had he not done that, he would've been under no obligation to deliver. He could've said "backers will receive the ability to purchase completed devices, if they work out, for 99% off" and he'd be in the clear.

But he didn't.

And now, you're right Max, he needs to do what he has obligated himself to do before this part comes into play:

A failure to do so could result in ... legal action on behalf of your backers.

I'm not gonna raise a flap over the $60 I'm out, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone else might.

[reinhardtjh]

The irony, MoPac has -100 respect for having an idea for a product.. and dcutting still has +50 respect after not refunding $10,000 collected for an undelivered product.

Someone else must have noticed as his respect is currently sitting at -19

And surely by now, he has read this thread and knows people are furious at him.  I can't excuse that with being young.

Perhaps not.  His profile activity says he hasn't been on since Oct 14th, a week ago.   Over on Trainboard his profile hasn't been active since Oct 11th.  Though that is no guarantee he hasn't looked, just not while logged in.

[mmagliaro]

Someone else must have noticed as his respect is currently sitting at -19

Perhaps not.  His profile activity says he hasn't been on since Oct 14th, a week ago.   Over on Trainboard his profile hasn't been active since Oct 11th.  Though that is no guarantee he hasn't looked, just not while logged in.

Fascinating.
But I would bet on option "b", that he has looked without logging on.  Logging on only opens him up to more attacks, because then people know he has read their complaints and has taken no action.  If it were me, I'd look to see how much trouble I was in with my customers, but I wouldn't log on unless I was going to say something helpful.

I honestly do not understand, kickstarter rules or not, how somebody can live this way.  When I was 15 years old, I was lucky to get a trial run at a company writing some software for them to do some of their project tracking and payroll.  They were taking a big chance on me since I was just a kid, but they happened to use the exact same mini computer I had been using at school, so I was able to make a deal: "I'll write all this software for you, and if you don't like it or it doesn't work, you owe me nothing.  If it works, you pay me a $1000 for it and it's yours."  Seemed fair to me, no risk for them, and heck, $1000 to a 15 year old kid was "millions".

The point?  When you are asking people to risk their money on your grand experiment and it doesn't work out, and you have money left in your pocket, you owe them.

[MK]

I'm not gonna raise a flap over the $60 I'm out, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone else might.

Class Action????   

[jdcolombo]

Class Action????   

No.

1.  Not enough money involved to get any decent lawyer interested.  Class actions work only when tens or hundreds of millions (or more) are at stake.

2.  Even when class actions work, the actual plaintiffs get pennies.  Only the lawyers make money (disclosure: I'm a lawyer.  A tax lawyer, not a litigator, but I have absorbed a bit about litigation during my career).  Class actions are primarily a tool to keep big manufacturers (e.g., Apple; Volkswagen; etc.) honest, not actually to fully compensate any "victims."

Sorry.  Kickstarter campaigns really are just high-risk investments.  Some times (maybe even many times) they work and you get a great product at a bargain or at least a good price; some times they don't.  I didn't invest in this one, but I have in others, and learned along the way that you need to be prepared to lose your money if things go south.

John C.

[POVC]

So I'm out $111 at this point, $105 for 2x Firebox and $6 shipping.  Despite dcutting saying he would answer questions, I still haven't gotten answers to the 3 questions I posed last week, and at this point don't expect them.  I did go ahead and reply to the survey, but I did not check the "request refund" box because I didn't want Kickstarter thinking it was my choice to drop out.  Instead I noted in the delivery instructions that if he was unable to provide 2x Firebox, I'd accept 1x Firebox or a refund of my portion of the unspent funds($71).  I also noted that I did not have a Paypal account and was not going to create one for this, so if he chose to send a refund, he should mail me a check or money order.  I'll let you know if I get a response.

As I see it dcutting is an inexperienced young man you got in over his head.  He underestimated both the time and resources needed to bring this project to completion, and I'm guessing he panicked when the quoted price  to produce the Fireboxes he'd already promised came back for more money than he had left.  Rather than confess to his mistakes, he compounded the issue with his so called "win-win" plan, which didn't satisfy anyone.

I really wish he'd have gone ahead and produced the hardware, even at a loss, with basic minimum function software and shipped that as a reward.  Yes, he would have taken a financial hit, but his reputation would not have taken a hit, the backers would have gotten the promised reward,  and he would have a sell-able product that he might eventually recoup his investment on.  But of course he never asked the backers what he should do...

[CBQ Fan]

Class Action????   

If it were my money I would pay a visit with some interested friends and have a face to face conversation about my refund.

[learmoia]

If it were my money I would pay a visit with some interested friends and have a face to face conversation about my refund.

Let him off the hook if he does the tiny bike through the loop trick.

[ridinshotgun]

Well I guess our money can buy quite a bit of delivery food and adult beverages!

[Philip H]

Not being a moderator, I'll go out on a shakey limb here . . .

Those who made investments through the Kickstarter have had their well deserved say.  Thoughtful suggestions have been given about how this could be resolved positively.  @dcutting said what he wanted to and has done what he wants to.  He has a huge hole to climb out of, and going on and on about how huge it is and how deep it is won't likely change what he's going to do or not. 

TRW gains nothing by continued flogging.

Let's move on.

[CRL]

A corporate primer on how best to flog a dead horse:

1. Buying a stronger whip.
2. Changing riders.
3. Say things like, "This is the way we have always ridden this horse."
4. Appointing a committee to study the horse.
5. Arranging to visit other sites to see how they ride dead horses.
6. Increasing the standards to ride dead horses.
7. Appointing a tiger team to revive the dead horse.
8. Creating a training session to increase our riding ability.
9. Comparing the state of dead horses in today's environment.
10. Change the requirements declaring that "This horse is not dead."
11. Hire contractors to ride the dead horse.
12. Harnessing several dead horses together for increased speed.
13. Declaring that "No horse is too dead to beat."
14. Providing additional funding to increase the horse's performance.
15. Do a Cost Analysis study to see if contractors can ride it cheaper.
16. Purchase a product to make dead horses run faster.
17. Declare the horse is "better, faster and cheaper" dead.
18. Form a quality circle to find uses for dead horses.
19. Revisit the performance requirements for horses.
20. Say this horse was procured with cost as an independent variable.
21. Promote the dead horse to a executive position.

[conrad]

Not being a moderator, I'll go out on a shakey limb here . . .

TRW gains nothing by continued flogging.

Let's move on.

A corporate primer on how best to flog a dead horse:

1. Buying a stronger whip.
2. Changing riders.
3. Say things like, "This is the way we have always ridden this horse."
4. Appointing a committee to study the horse.
5. Arranging to visit other sites to see how they ride dead horses.
6. Increasing the standards to ride dead horses.
7. Appointing a tiger team to revive the dead horse.
8. Creating a training session to increase our riding ability.
9. Comparing the state of dead horses in today's environment.
10. Change the requirements declaring that "This horse is not dead."
11. Hire contractors to ride the dead horse.
12. Harnessing several dead horses together for increased speed.
13. Declaring that "No horse is too dead to beat."
14. Providing additional funding to increase the horse's performance.
15. Do a Cost Analysis study to see if contractors can ride it cheaper.
16. Purchase a product to make dead horses run faster.
17. Declare the horse is "better, faster and cheaper" dead.
18. Form a quality circle to find uses for dead horses.
19. Revisit the performance requirements for horses.
20. Say this horse was procured with cost as an independent variable.
21. Promote the dead horse to a executive position.

Considering a lot of us are stuck at home I'd say lets flog for a few more months.  After all, I'm only up to step 3 of the above.

Conrad