A Caboose Mystery

[pjm20]

This is the Bellefonte Central's Caboose #101. From Rails to Penn State by Michael Bezilla and Jack Rudnicki, it was purchased second hand in 1930 with wood sides and steel frame. My question to the Railwire community is: who's caboose was it originally? Based that its wood sheathed, it could be a plywood sheath, but this photo is from 1946 and this caboose was in rough shape by then, so it is possible the resourceful Bellefonte Central resheathed it. Additionally, it is possible the original owner rebuilt a wood frame caboose to a steel frame, so who would dump a caboose they rebuilt probably in the late 10s by the late 20s? It's pretty close to a Reading NMn or a B&O I5, but I can't find anything that matches. Anybody recognize their roads caboose? Thanks in advance for the research help.

FYI, not my photo.

[Chris333]

103 came from New Haven.

[pjm20]

103 came from New Haven.

Yep, and #102 was an ex NYC Army Staff Car, ie caboose made out of a 36' boxcar. #102 and #103 still exist, but #101 was scrapped in the mid 50s. This is the only photo I found of it.

[pjm20]

So after some further research (mostly luck and brasstrains.com's caboose selection), I've discovered that the BFC's 101 is very close to a RF&P caboose:


From the RF&PHS

And we have this roster: http://www.trainweb.org/rf&p/roster/caboose.htm

Apparently the RF&P rebuilt a bunch of early 1900s wood cabooses in the late 1910s, fitting my hypothesis earlier. Some photos I have found even show plywood sheathing. The link above shows that the RF&P didn't start selling these off until around 1937, not 1930. At the same time, the BFC would go on to purchase to C&O G9 2-8-0s in, one in 1938 and one in 1940. This shows that whatever market they would look into for equipment was no stranger to southern equipment. Also, a bunch of these cabooses were purchased by the Pacific Electric.

Possibly the source for the RF&P roster could be wrong, and somehow the BFC bought one of these cabooses in 1930 rebuilt or did some home grown rebuilding. The other possibility is who ever made this cabooses for the RF&P produced more for other railroads. Any RF&P or PE modeler's have any info on these cabooses origins?

[johnb]

Um, the Pacific Electric bought them after WWII.....

[pjm20]

Um, the Pacific Electric bought them after WWII.....

I realize that, but I was hoping maybe the cabooses' manufacture would be have been recorded somewhere in PE literature besides "bought from the RF&P in 1950." Can't rule anything out when researching railroad topics. My latest lead know takes me back to the ACL. The ACL M3 has some of the features I'm looking for. The M3 was built in the ACL's Waycross Shop in 1925-27. The ACL was one of the 6 railroads that had a controlling stake in the RF&P. Is the RF&P caboose an earlier prototype for the M3?

[johnb]

I realize that, but I was hoping maybe the cabooses' manufacture would be have been recorded somewhere in PE literature besides "bought from the RF&P in 1950." Can't rule anything out when researching railroad topics. My latest lead know takes me back to the ACL. The ACL M3 has some of the features I'm looking for. The M3 was built in the ACL's Waycross Shop in 1925-27. The ACL was one of the 6 railroads that had a controlling stake in the RF&P. Is the RF&P caboose an earlier prototype for the M3?

the Pacific Electric documents state that caboose 1976-1985 were probably built in 1905.

[davefoxx]

@pjm20,

As best as I can tell, the RF&P's cabooses from the 800-series were homebuilt in the 1900s and 1910s.  If I were at home, I could possibly get a better idea on specific cabooses, where I would have access to my library.  I don't see any reason yet why the information posted by Bill Griffin on TrainWeb link in your previous post is not reliable, and it is correct that the cabooses sold to the Pacific Electric occurred in 1950.

My understanding is that six railroads held stock in the holding company that owned the RF&P, and they didn't have direct control over the RF&P, which remained independent.  Plus, the ACL was only a one-sixth owner, so it would surprise me that they would have had that much sway over the RF&P's caboose design in the first decade of the 1900s.  That said, there are certainly some similar characteristics, and I could be wrong, but the dimensions seem to vary slightly enough to my eye, that they are not the same design.

So, I think you nailed it when you discovered the resemblance to the RF&P cabooses.  Although the trucks may be different (easily changed over the decades), the corner steps and rooflines are the giveaway to me.



Hope this helps,
DFF

[johnb]

I would be down for one as a kit, and I know Robert Ray, his laser is up and running and he has made caboose kits...is there enough of a demand for me to ask him about a possible kit?

[Mark5]

That's a damn good match.

The 1930 date may be off, as maybe BC bought from a "dealer" such as "Railway Accessories" or"J. E. Skelton Co." as shown here.

http://www.trainweb.org/rf&p/roster/caboose.htm

Not shown on the roster is that at least one ended up on Atlantic and Yadkin (presumably bought from one of the "dealers"):

http://images.dpdx.net/2015-08-31-0003.jpg

Mark

[pjm20]

Unfortunately (? ) the 1930 date of purchase for the BFC is not wrong. The BFC bought #101 as their first caboose after buying a recently abandoned PRR branch that essentially doubled their trackage (which they promptly abandoned in 1933.) Prior to #101 they had been using an old combine. @davefoxx and @johnb Thanks for the information. After some further research I found these were actually home built at the RF&P's Boulton Shop. Either one of those cabooses that went to "work equipment" in 1924 were sold off, or possibly the RF&P built some cabooses for someone else that was copy, or close copy, to their own caboose design. As I said, it could have been rebuilt by the dealer, or the BFC by the time the photo was taken. The hunt continues!

[pjm20]

@Mark5 I did some more hunting on that caboose and it turns out that railroad ended up with 2, #861 and #862. Still no actual source that specifically mentions that they are RF&P (even though it is obvious from photos.) The numbering is in the 800 series, but the RF&P never had a #861 and #862, so that eliminates confirmation based on keeping the RF&P's numbering. I found a J.G. Skelton equipment dealer from Richmond, VA from various Manufacturers Records on Google.

[johnb]

A little more data about the Pacific Electric caboose...they were bought in two batches, in 1950.

[johnb]

Anyone have detailed plans for this caboose?

[pjm20]

Anyone have detailed plans for this caboose?

This. Best I have now is a brass caboose or two different sets of general dimensions from different sources.