Walthers DL-109

[ns737]

I have a Walthers DL-109 with a bad motor. has any buddy replaced the motor with a different mfg. motor. I can not get one from Walthers.

[peteski]

I have a Walthers DL-109 with a bad motor. has any buddy replaced the motor with a different mfg. motor. I can not get one from Walthers.

Motors seldom die - what is the defect?  Oh wait, you are your club's "loco mechanic"? So The motor is probably without hope, but I'm still curious as to what the exact problem is.

Aren't those motors the same generic motors used in other Life-Like locos? It sure looks like a standard Life-Like/Atlas/Kato type motor.  Even if the flywheels are different, those can be pulled off and reinstalled on a replacement motor.

[ns737]

this is one of your members engine. one of winding's is bad. the motor will turn only out of the frame and then vary slow on dc at full throttle. I fixed his connie for him.

[peteski]

In my experience bad (open/shorted?) winding symptoms are different than what you describe.   Whether the motor is installed in the frame or not should not affect behavior of a motor with bad winding.  The problem sounds like maybe misaligned bearing (that creates bind on the motor shaft).

Either way, I checked the dimensions of Life-Like, Kato, and Atlas (actually unbranded motor from eBay which appears to be identical to Atlas), and all 3 motors have all the dimensions withing few thousands of an inch. So those 3 motors are physically interchangeable.  If you have a spare Atlas or Kato motor, and can swap flywheels (since those will likely be different between them), you should be able to fix that loco.

[Doug G.]

A five poler with one open winding will seldom, if ever, not start. It will just run slower than one with all good windings. A three poler? That's a different kettle of fish.

Doug

[u18b]

While I agree rare, I had a problem a few months ago.   I view it as a diagnosis like some diseases- you conclude by ruling out other possibilities.

Here were my symptoms on a repair for someone. 

Cleaned trucks, drive train, pickups etc.
Put on test track.  Ran great.  Very pleased.
Ran some more. 

At some point, I turned up power- nothing.  That's weird.

Moved loco a little with hand.  nothing.  No short- but nothing.  Can't remember if this loco had lights.

sigh.  Disassemble.   check contacts.
chassis on track- nothing.  huh?
Hotwire motor- nothing. 
Old motor.  I'll clean the commutator.  I think I removed the motor.  VERY carefully ran a blade between plates of commutator to get the gunk out.
test.  Motor runs now.  Hmmm.  OK.  (feel good)

Reassemble.   Test run.   Runs great.   Start stop.   Reverse.  Pleased.
Go for a walk with wife.

Come back- nothing.  HUH???    It was JUST running.   Ahhhhhhh!!!!!!

Pull the shell again.

When chassis is sitting and I turn the motor- now it runs.

I thus conclude that something related to a pole is wrong.  A pole is dead.   If not windings, then maybe a solder joint at the commutator. 
Loco will run.... but if by chance it stops with a brush right on the dead spot- nothing happens.

I replaced the motor and never had a moment's problem again.

Tossed the motor in the trash.

[peteski]

While I agree rare, I had a problem a few months ago.   I view it as a diagnosis like some diseases- you conclude by ruling out other possibilities.

Here were my symptoms on a repair for someone. 

Cleaned trucks, drive train, pickups etc.
Put on test track.  Ran great.  Very pleased.
Ran some more. 

At some point, I turned up power- nothing.  That's weird.

Moved loco a little with hand.  nothing.  No short- but nothing.  Can't remember is this loco had lights.

sigh.  Disassemble.   check contacts.
chassis on track- nothing.  huh?
Hotwire motor- nothing. 
Old motor.  I'll clean the commutator.  I think I removed the motor.  VERY carefully ran a blade between plates of commutator to get the gunk out.
test.  Motor runs now.  Hmmm.  OK.  (feel good)

Reassemble.   Test run.   Runs great.   Start stop.   Reverse.  Pleased.
Go for a walk with wife.

Come back- nothing.  HUH???    It was JUST running.   Ahhhhhhh!!!!!!

Pull the shell again.

When chassis is sitting and I turn the motor- now it runs.

I thus conclude that something related to a pole is wrong.  A pole is dead.   If not windings, then maybe a solder joint at the commutator. 
Loco will run.... but if by chance it stops with a brush right on the dead spot- nothing happens.

I replaced the motor and never had a moment's problem again.

Tossed the motor in the trash.

I had a similar problem with a Kato motor. Friend bought an A-B-A set of Kato Alcos on eBay (no problems mentioned in the listing).  They looked  barely used. We tested them and noticed that one of the A-units ran slightly slower than the others.  Then one time after we stopped it, it would not start again (even cranking the throttle up).  I took it apart and looked things over - nothing amiss. When I had the motor out, I hooked it up to a 9V battery and it ran fine.  So I put it back together and ran it again. Still slower than other units, and then again after several successful stops and starts, we stopped it, it would not run.

I took the motor out and started testing it.  I found that it has a dead spot. If the motor stopped on that spot, it would not restart again until the armature was rotated slightly.

Since the commutator is not easily accessible in those motors, I removed the flywheels and took the motor apart.  Then I started taking resistance measurements of the winding by probing the commutator.  One segment was not connected to anything (open circuit).

Kato motors appear to be wound using a continuous wire for all the poles.  That wire is then crimped (not soldered) to each segment of the commutator. The crimping action displaces the insulating enamel on the wire and electrically connects the wire to the commutator segment.  In this case the crimping pressure at that segment did not penetrate the enamel, so the wire was not connected to the commutator.

Under magnification I delicately scrapped some enamel off the wire, then added some flux and soldered it to the commutator.  Now that segment showed continuity to the other segments (as expected for a working motor).  Arrow points to the area of the wire where I scraped of the enamel, and added a "blob" of solder.



I reassembled the motor and now the loco ran fine, no stalling, and its speed matched the other units.  I suspect that this motor was defective out of the factory, but because if the intermittent nature of the problem, it passed the factory quality control.  When they tested it, the motor never stopped at the dead commutator segment.

Ron, I also cringed when I read that you used a (steel) blade to clean the gap in a soft-copper commutator!  I never do that. I take a wooden toothpick and using a knife I whittle its end into a thin flat shape. Thin enough to fit in the commutator gap. Then I use that "tool" to clean the gunk. Wood is much softer than copper, so no worries about nicking or otherwise damaging the commutator.  That toothpick last many cleanings, and if it breaks, it is easy to make another one.

[MK]

That's some great detective work there Peteski!

[mcjaco]

How about we answer his question instead of winding down some other road? 

Someone has to have an old LL motor layng around for him. 

[u18b]

Hi Matt and NS737.

I think two solutions have been presented thus far.

1.  Carefully examine the motor further if possible.  Looking for defect at commutator wiring.

2.  An Atlas motor (with comparable flywheels) should work.   (or you could use a puller and swap flywheels).

Of course, maybe someone will have a DL-109 motor.

[ns737]

OK some back ground on this engine. when it was given to at the E show it did not run. I was unable to get to it right away . I started working on it this week. and found the white grease was hard as a rock. the trucks would not roll at all. I took the trucks apart and cleaned them,cleaned the bearings and worm gears. so that is all good.

[peteski]

OK some back ground on this engine. when it was given to at the E show it did not run. I was unable to get to it right away . I started working on it this week. and found the white grease was hard as a rock. the trucks would not roll at all. I took the trucks apart and cleaned them,cleaned the bearings and worm gears. so that is all good.

Nice job!  And, as I suspected, it was not the motor.    I didn't mention hardened lubricant as a possible problem, but I  did mention mechanical binding rather than electrical problem.  I assumed that before blaming the motor, you checked the mechanism first.

Looking at what has been stated here, I guess you sort of gave a clue in "the motor will turn only out of the frame and then vary slow on dc at full throttle".  After that discovery, it would have been prudent to check the mechanism for binding (not the motor).

The way I interpreted your statement was that the motor "turned slowly" when out of the loco, and "very slowly" when installed in the loco. You had me focused an a wrong component. 

[ns737]

the engine has a hard wired decoder in it. I think the bad grease froze the mech. and burned the motor.

[peteski]

the engine has a hard wired decoder in it. I think the bad grease froze the mech. and burned the motor.

I guess I am not  following your problem description then.  I again (incorrectly?) assumed that "all good" in your previous post meant "the loco is fixed - the mechanism and motor are working just fine). 

So how is the motor behaving when powered up while outside of the model?
Does the motor shaft spin freely and has tiny amount of fore-and-aft play?
Does the armature wire look burned (darkened)?
Did you pull out and check check the brushes (and springs)?

Like I mentioned, if the motor is really defective (and unrepairable), swapping the flywheels to any of the similar motors (Kato or Atlas, or one of the generic ones) should work.  But I'm still curious about the problem with that original motor.

I assumed you were quite experienced in troubleshooting model locomotives.  Sorry.

[ns737]

the motor out side of the frame you can rotate the armature freely no bind. I put dc to the motor and it moves vary slowly at full throttle. I changed the springs and brushes with atlas set. and motor still the same.