Author Topic: SP experts- I need your help with B-50-15  (Read 1141 times)

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thomasjmdavis

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SP experts- I need your help with B-50-15
« on: February 03, 2020, 04:08:50 PM »
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Hello all,

After a (very) long wait, Out of the Box models shipped my pair of B-50-15 boxcars.  These are pretty nice models, especially for the price, long wait notwithstanding.

Now I am finding it frustrating to find paint and decals.

The SP historical society recommends a Floquil paint (well, that's not going to happen) "R-74 boxcar red".  Well, no more Floquil.  But, also, the various equivalence charts out there do not list an R-74.  They DO list an "R-64 boxcar red" - is this the same thing- which is to say, is the HS listing a misprint?  In either case, does anyone have a recommendation for a water based acrylic that is a close match for the SP color?  I gave up solvent based paints some years ago.

Problem #2 is apparently decals.  Before I got involved in this, I did check that Microscale made a decal for "SP single sheathed boxcars" but must not have take a close look.  Now that I view it
http://www.microscale.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=MD&Product_Code=60-911&Category_Code=SP
I see that (a) it is rather specifically for B-50-13 and B-50-14 cars (ie- the data and other "small print" will likely not be correct) and according to the photo, well, it will only completely letter 1 Pacific Electric car, and while it has lots of "SP", does not include "Southern Pacific" spelled out (as is shown in EVERY photo I can find of the cars), and does NOT include numbers.

Now, my previous experience with Microscale is that while they usually show the HO scale decal in the N scale listings, the N scale decal is often MUCH different.  IS this the case here (that is to say, does it include "Southern Pacific" lettering not shown on their catalog page which is HO)? Or is there a better decal out there for these cars?

Tom D.

"The difference between the difficult and the impossible is that doing the impossible is usually more fun." (my college design professor Russell Whaley)

SP-Wolf

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Re: SP experts- I need your help with B-50-15
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2020, 04:42:04 PM »
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Hello all,

After a (very) long wait, Out of the Box models shipped my pair of B-50-15 boxcars.  These are pretty nice models, especially for the price, long wait notwithstanding.

Now I am finding it frustrating to find paint and decals.

The SP historical society recommends a Floquil paint (well, that's not going to happen) "R-74 boxcar red".  Well, no more Floquil.  But, also, the various equivalence charts out there do not list an R-74.  They DO list an "R-64 boxcar red" - is this the same thing- which is to say, is the HS listing a misprint?  In either case, does anyone have a recommendation for a water based acrylic that is a close match for the SP color?  I gave up solvent based paints some years ago.

Problem #2 is apparently decals.  Before I got involved in this, I did check that Microscale made a decal for "SP single sheathed boxcars" but must not have take a close look.  Now that I view it
http://www.microscale.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=MD&Product_Code=60-911&Category_Code=SP
I see that (a) it is rather specifically for B-50-13 and B-50-14 cars (ie- the data and other "small print" will likely not be correct) and according to the photo, well, it will only completely letter 1 Pacific Electric car, and while it has lots of "SP", does not include "Southern Pacific" spelled out (as is shown in EVERY photo I can find of the cars), and does NOT include numbers.

Now, my previous experience with Microscale is that while they usually show the HO scale decal in the N scale listings, the N scale decal is often MUCH different.  IS this the case here (that is to say, does it include "Southern Pacific" lettering not shown on their catalog page which is HO)? Or is there a better decal out there for these cars?

I'm not an expert -- so, ---

As these were rebuilds -- this is a tough one.

Here is a good resource:
http://modelingthesp.com/Rolling_Stock/B-40_thru_B-50.html

For the lettering:
You can use (To supplement what you have):
http://www.microscale.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=60-923

For the the paint, use: (Sorry, it's not water based)
Tue-Color
TCP-211   SOUTHERN PACIFIC 1945-60’S FRT. CAR RED

This should get ya headed in the right direction

Wolf


SandyEggoJake

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Re: SP experts- I need your help with B-50-15
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2020, 08:03:20 PM »
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Opening the ol' can of "what color paint" debate?  You are brave! 

R-74 Boxcar Red was a Floquil paint.  I have a bottle.  RR74 Boxcar Red But not water.  It was with the Dio-Sol solvent.  There is an ebay listing for a NOS bottle as we speak.

You might be confused in reading the chart? (say here https://www.microscale.com/Floquil%20Color%20Chart.pdf)
Which list Tamiya's XF-64 "Red Brown" as to being a replacement for Floquil's "Boxcar red"?     

Hope this helps, even if I can't speak to it as a comparison. 
« Last Edit: February 03, 2020, 08:23:57 PM by SandyEggoJake »

SandyEggoJake

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Re: SP experts- I need your help with B-50-15
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2020, 08:20:17 PM »
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So for color, I would add the question.... what era do you model and what condition for the car are you targeting? 

By the way, just checked out my new "SP Freight car painting and lettering guide" by Harley and Thompson w/ Signor.    (Doesn't get more authoritative on SP colors than these three - at least on this side of the grass today.)  It shows several variations for your car.  A few B-50-15 for Overnight Service were painted are really cool BLACK w/ Daylight Orange Trim and Orange lettering (p 39)

johnb

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Re: SP experts- I need your help with B-50-15
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2020, 09:40:24 PM »
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So for color, I would add the question.... what era do you model and what condition for the car are you targeting? 

By the way, just checked out my new "SP Freight car painting and lettering guide" by Harley and Thompson w/ Signor.    (Doesn't get more authoritative on SP colors than these three - at least on this side of the grass today.)  It shows several variations for your car.  A few B-50-15 for Overnight Service were painted are really cool BLACK w/ Daylight Orange Trim and Orange lettering (p 39)
the overnight cars ran in blocks, whole trains...for a onesie,  go brown.

Mike Madonna

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Re: SP experts- I need your help with B-50-15
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2020, 09:52:07 PM »
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Hi Tom,
Like Wolf said, "not an expert" but......
I received my shipment a week ago Saturday (while we were in Springfield for the Amherst Train Show  :D)
I had ordered four -15s and two -16s. It appears Dan (Out of the Box Models) never printed the -16s  :(
Dan told me that the -16s were going to be the steel sheathed "rebuilds". It appears that these cars are (like the originals) wood sheathed.       If not, then it's the marks left by the printer. The roof seems to have very fine "printer marks" on it.
As for paint, I'll have to double check and see what I have used in the recent past. As for a color, Jake said it best. The decals may be an issue. The old Microscale 60-03 set had the post-1946 "Southern Pacific" and "SP" script. If I recall, the "Southern Pacific" lettering was a bit large in this set. I'd have to go back and dig those out. The "911" set may work for the herald and some reporting marks. It depends on what period you want the car to represent. The "Lettering Guide" would give one answers. Tony Thompson's "SP Freight Cars, V4 Boxcars" has a few lettering diagrams in it. I can take a look as I have to figure this out as well....
Mike
SOUTHERN PACIFIC Coast Division 1953
Santa Margarita Sub

SandyEggoJake

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Re: SP experts- I need your help with B-50-15
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2020, 10:18:11 PM »
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To dovetail with Mike's comments re lettering, at least with the big stuff, you do have some options, but I will withhold specific suggestions till you provide more details on the era you model. 

Seems you've already checked out the Microscales offerings.  You may* also consider the Tichy lineup (* all the caveats about their suitability for N scale, previously stated herein, include by reference) (see the 2019 decal catalog on their webpage - they have far more than would seem if you just search their shop. 

Finally, if interested to do custom, and time is not urgent let me know.  I've been working on an new early (pre '46) SP white freight car lettering set (on and off) with the hope do including items missing in the Microscales sets. 

thomasjmdavis

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Re: SP experts- I need your help with B-50-15
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2020, 11:50:03 PM »
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Wolf- I've seen your modeling.  You are much more an expert than I am.

Opening the ol' can of "what color paint" debate?  You are brave! 

R-74 Boxcar Red was a Floquil paint.  I have a bottle.  RR74 Boxcar Red But not water.  It was with the Dio-Sol solvent.  There is an ebay listing for a NOS bottle as we speak.

You might be confused in reading the chart? (say here https://www.microscale.com/Floquil%20Color%20Chart.pdf)
Which list Tamiya's XF-64 "Red Brown" as to being a replacement for Floquil's "Boxcar red"?     

Hope this helps, even if I can't speak to it as a comparison.

You are right, I was confused reading the chart.  I was reading the "64" as the Floquil number, not the Tamiya number.  And thanks for the offer on custom decals, but that is more time and trouble than I want to spare on a couple of boxcars.  I just wanted to be sure that I wasn't missing something obvious- and apparently this is another case where the near monopoly on decals is not serving the N scale market very well.

Mike Madonna,
I haven't dug through my old emails.  I think I ordered mine as later versions as well, but as you say, received early wood versions. Of the 2 I received, one seems very clean, the other does have some printer "artifacts". My timeframe is 1954-56.  This is fairly late for the wood sides, although one of the sites I found while searching about for details indicated that some of the cars still had wood sides at that point.  I do wonder if any still had their original doors, or brakes.  The cars for me are more to help me achieve a balance between wood and steel cars and offset the larger than it should be fleet of PS-1s (not SP), due mostly to the Micro-trains "standard boxcar" that was the only readily available quality choice in my early N scale years. 

Tom D.

"The difference between the difficult and the impossible is that doing the impossible is usually more fun." (my college design professor Russell Whaley)

pdx1955

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Re: SP experts- I need your help with B-50-15
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2020, 12:40:44 AM »
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Mike Madonna,
I haven't dug through my old emails.  I think I ordered mine as later versions as well, but as you say, received early wood versions. Of the 2 I received, one seems very clean, the other does have some printer "artifacts". My timeframe is 1954-56.  This is fairly late for the wood sides, although one of the sites I found while searching about for details indicated that some of the cars still had wood sides at that point.  I do wonder if any still had their original doors, or brakes.  The cars for me are more to help me achieve a balance between wood and steel cars and offset the larger than it should be fleet of PS-1s (not SP), due mostly to the Micro-trains "standard boxcar" that was the only readily available quality choice in my early N scale years.

My five showed up today (3 original and 2 rebuilt). Only about a third of them were rebuilt so many of these lasted in the original condition beyond the mid-50's with the original doors and vertical brake wheels (they were converted to underbody AB brake equipment) . My SP boxcar book shows a number of photos like this - even from the early 60's. I'm going to put one original into MOW lettering and a rebuilt one into Overnight colors and rest to general service. I wouldn't have any concern with the models as they are configured.
Peter

"No one ever died because of a bad question, but bad assumptions can kill"

johnb

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Re: SP experts- I need your help with B-50-15
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2020, 01:02:47 AM »
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I didn't have any faith in the project,  I now wish that I ordered some

Cajonpassfan

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Re: SP experts- I need your help with B-50-15
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2020, 12:02:16 PM »
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Ditto here. Would anyone post of pic?
Thanks,Otto

Mike Madonna

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Re: SP experts- I need your help with B-50-15
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2020, 09:34:43 PM »
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Wolf- I've seen your modeling.  You are much more an expert than I am.

You are right, I was confused reading the chart.  I was reading the "64" as the Floquil number, not the Tamiya number.  And thanks for the offer on custom decals, but that is more time and trouble than I want to spare on a couple of boxcars.  I just wanted to be sure that I wasn't missing something obvious- and apparently this is another case where the near monopoly on decals is not serving the N scale market very well.

Mike Madonna,
I haven't dug through my old emails.  I think I ordered mine as later versions as well, but as you say, received early wood versions. Of the 2 I received, one seems very clean, the other does have some printer "artifacts". My timeframe is 1954-56.  This is fairly late for the wood sides, although one of the sites I found while searching about for details indicated that some of the cars still had wood sides at that point.  I do wonder if any still had their original doors, or brakes.  The cars for me are more to help me achieve a balance between wood and steel cars and offset the larger than it should be fleet of PS-1s (not SP), due mostly to the Micro-trains "standard boxcar" that was the only readily available quality choice in my early N scale years.

Tom,
Since you mention '54- '56, you could use the reporting marks "SP", with no white lines above nor below and no periods. Of course, this is with the "SP" being 9" and the road number being 7".

Peter,
Your two "rebuilt" cars, are these the smooth, steel sheathed sided cars with Dreadnaught ends??? I specifically told Dan, 4 wood and 2 steel. Regardless, they should make a nice addition to the roster.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 09:41:13 PM by Mike Madonna »
Mike
SOUTHERN PACIFIC Coast Division 1953
Santa Margarita Sub

pdx1955

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Re: SP experts- I need your help with B-50-15
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2020, 10:45:27 PM »
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Peter,
Your two "rebuilt" cars, are these the smooth, steel sheathed sided cars with Dreadnaught ends??? I specifically told Dan, 4 wood and 2 steel. Regardless, they should make a nice addition to the roster.

Nope, these are just rebuilt steel sheathed -15's with the corrugated ends which match what I specifically requested by class. Once my decal order arrives , I'll be ready to put these together. They'll be good variation on the standard IM/MT outlines and saves me from having to build these also. 
Peter

"No one ever died because of a bad question, but bad assumptions can kill"

thomasjmdavis

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Re: SP experts- I need your help with B-50-15
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2020, 02:52:50 PM »
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Ditto here. Would anyone post of pic?
Thanks,Otto
Otto,
Here is a quick shot with my phone of the better of the 2 I received after primer (the other has "artifacts" in the form of threads of the resin running vertically across the sides on a slight right to left diagonal)



Most of the photos I've seen show much smaller boards (2x4s?) but in some factory shots, it does appear cars may have had 10" or 12" boards when new. 
Tom D.

"The difference between the difficult and the impossible is that doing the impossible is usually more fun." (my college design professor Russell Whaley)

Mike Madonna

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Re: SP experts- I need your help with B-50-15
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2020, 09:35:31 PM »
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Tom,
You mention, "(the other has "artifacts" in the form of threads of the resin running vertically across the sides on a slight right to left diagonal)".
One of mine has the exact same thing.

Peter,
I'll be curious to see the decals you mention and, of course, the finished model!  ;)
Mike
SOUTHERN PACIFIC Coast Division 1953
Santa Margarita Sub