Running Scaletrains Sound decoders in consist with non-sound decoders?

[Maletrain]

I have a Scaletrains "rivet counter" Dash-9 with sound.  It has some very distinctive motion characteristics to coordinate with the start-up and begin moving routines of the real engines, even when I have the sounds turned off.  I am thinking about getting a second unit to increase the train length over some steep, curvy grades by consisting it with my current unit.  I really don't need sound in the second unit, but am wondering if I will have trouble matching the second unit's motion characteristics (delays as well as momentum) with the sound unit.  Has anybody attempted that, yet?  I would not want to have to forego sound in the existing unit to make the consist work without one unit fighting the other when starting.

[tehachapifan]

Those have ESU decoders, right? If so, yes, you can get ESU non-sound decoders that will match the start delay of an ESU sound decoder thru a feature called "virtual sound". Also, I think there's a CV setting to turn off the start delay in the ESU sound decoder as well, but then you lose the rather cool feature.

Setting up the virtual sound start delay to match an existing LokSound decoder is easy if you have a LokProgrammer. Haven't tried it without a programmer but I'm sure it can be done.

[Steveruger45]

I have a Scaletrains "rivet counter" Dash-9 with sound.  It has some very distinctive motion characteristics to coordinate with the start-up and begin moving routines of the real engines, even when I have the sounds turned off.  I am thinking about getting a second unit to increase the train length over some steep, curvy grades by consisting it with my current unit.  I really don't need sound in the second unit, but am wondering if I will have trouble matching the second unit's motion characteristics (delays as well as momentum) with the sound unit.  Has anybody attempted that, yet?  I would not want to have to forego sound in the existing unit to make the consist work without one unit fighting the other when starting.

What Russ said, and if you don’t have a lokprogrammer you can adjust the start delay on the lokpilot on JMRI too.
However, there is another wrinkle to be aware of, the sound decoder in the scale trains dash 9 being the new lok5dcc will use different momentum settings than the current lokpilot non sound decoder.   
This is not a real problem to fix you just need to know the conversion factor.  Which is 3.584:1
Loksound v4 and lokpilot momentum is 0.25secs per cv setting number and the lok5dcc it’s 0.896.
So for example, if you set momentum (cv3 and cv4) on a 5dcc=34, The lokpilot would need to be set at 122

[tehachapifan]

Steve, that conversion factor is good to know! I havn't seen that before. That needs to be laminated or framed on the wall above my LokProgrammer!

[EspeeGoldenState]

What Russ said, and if you don’t have a lokprogrammer you can adjust the start delay on the lokpilot on JMRI too.
However, there is another wrinkle to be aware of, the sound decoder in the scale trains dash 9 being the new lok5dcc will use different momentum settings than the current lokpilot non sound decoder.   
This is not a real problem to fix you just need to know the conversion factor.  Which is 3.584:1
Loksound v4 and lokpilot momentum is 0.25secs per cv setting number and the lok5dcc it’s 0.896.
So for example, if you set momentum (cv3 and cv4) on a 5dcc=34, The lokpilot would need to be set at 122

Thank you Steve! I noticed that on my pair of ST Dash 9s as well, but hadn't tried to see if there was a resolution anywhere yet. I wasn't all too concerned because I had hoped to replace that LokPilot before too long.

Chris

[EspeeGoldenState]

could one just disconnect the speaker from the DCC board to achieve the same?


Gary

It would still be different firmware/CVs between the two decoders, unhooking the speaker would not matter.

Chris

PS, Is there a speaker already installed in the DCC version? I know my DC versions of the T4s did not

[Steveruger45]

It would still be different firmware/CVs between the two decoders, unhooking the speaker would not matter.

Chris

PS, Is there a speaker already installed in the DCC version? I know my DC versions of the T4s did not

Chris, my ST dash 9’s were plain dc and did not have a speaker.  I doubt the dcc non sound version would have a speaker also  but I don’t know for sure.

[daniel_leavitt2000]

Those have ESU decoders, right? If so, yes, you can get ESU non-sound decoders that will match the start delay of an ESU sound decoder thru a feature called "virtual sound". Also, I think there's a CV setting to turn off the start delay in the ESU sound decoder as well, but then you lose the rather cool feature.

Setting up the virtual sound start delay to match an existing LokSound decoder is easy if you have a LokProgrammer. Haven't tried it without a programmer but I'm sure it can be done.

I disable three things in all my engines to get them to run nice: Start delay, momentum and braking. This makes consisting between brands pretty easy. yeah it takes away some of the "fun" but I go easy on the controller with slow changes in throttle.

But this just goes to show you that the DCC standards are REALLY lacking. We need a universal function maps, CV functions and startup, shut down and momentum parameters.

[davefoxx]

I disable three things in all my engines to get them to run nice: Start delay, momentum and braking. This makes consisting between brands pretty easy. yeah it takes away some of the "fun" but I go easy on the controller with slow changes in throttle.

But this just goes to show you that the DCC standards are REALLY lacking. We need a universal function maps, CV functions and startup, shut down and momentum parameters.

Try a ProtoThrottle, and you may want to re-enable those three features.  Granted this was made easier for me by standardizing on ESU decoders and using a LokProgrammer, but, at the end of the day, running a locomotive or consist on my layout is much more realistic, as there are no jackrabbit starts and you have to use the brake to stop the train.  Just like the real thing.  I cannot imagine going back to just solely using the throttle to control speed.  Sort of like directional lighting; real locos don't do that, either.   

That being said, I will offer this disclaimer: I still need to learn how to speed-match locomotives with ESU Loksound v5.0 decoders.  ESU changed the momentum parameters between v4.0 and v5.0, among other things, so there's no universal parameters even within a specific brand!

DFF

[davefoxx]

could one just disconnect the speaker from the DCC board to achieve the same?


Gary

No, if the decoder is programmed for sound, it does not know or care whether the speaker is physical attached or not.  If the speaker is attached, it makes sound.  If not, no sound.  Disconnecting a speaker does nothing to change the start delay or momentum parameters of a locomotive.  For example, sometimes when I am wiring up a new decoder, the speaker is the last thing to be attached.  I'll test the locomotive at each stage of wiring, i.e., trucks/motor, lighting, and speaker.  The locomotive runs the same whether the speaker (and lights for that matter) are hooked up or not.

DFF

[Steveruger45]

......
That being said, I will offer this disclaimer: I still need to learn how to speed-match locomotives with ESU Loksound v5.0 decoders.  ESU changed the momentum parameters between v4.0 and v5.0, among other things, so there's no universal parameters even within a specific brand!

DFF

Hi Dave,
Esu v4 and selects and lokpilots use a 0.25 second interval for each cv number in cv3 and cv4.  So does the new lok5 multiprotcol.   But the lok5dcc decoders use NMRA interval of 0.896 seconds.
Another wrinkle is lok5 multiprotocol don’t have three point speed steps cv2,5 and 6.  You have to use a speed curve on these, whereas lok5dcc does/can use three step speed setting on cv2,5 and 6.

I use the lok5dcc variant and set the speed steps cv2,5,6 to match my settings of 1.6/70/35 smph  and just lower the cv3 and 4 settings in line with the conversion factor stated earlier to best match my selects/v4/ lokpilots.
I have my momentum pretty high, at 120 on these older decoders.   There is no exact / equivalent match for this setting on the lok5dcc decoder, closest is either 33 or 34.  Which equates to 118 or 122 respectively on the older decoders.
I just reset my older decoders to 122 and the new lok5dcc to 34 on the momentum cvs.  They play together nice.

[davefoxx]

Another wrinkle is lok5 multiprotocol don’t have three point speed steps cv2,5 and 6.  You have to use a speed curve on these . . . .

Hi, Steve,

This is exactly why I haven't figured it out yet.  Yet.

DFF

[Steveruger45]

Hi, Steve,

This is exactly why I haven't figured it out yet.  Yet.

DFF

Hi Dave
I don’t mess with speed curves at all. But, would it not be possible to set the speed curve as straight line between speed step 1 and the mid point of the curve and then another from the mid point to the max setting?  This, I’m thinking would achieve the same three point equivalent.  Or am i missing something here.

[davefoxx]

Hi Dave
I don’t mess with speed curves at all. But, would it not be possible to set the speed curve as straight line between speed step 1 and the mid point of the curve and then another from the mid point to the max setting?  This, I’m thinking would achieve the same three point equivalent.  Or am i missing something here.

On v4.0 decoders, I was setting the three points as follows: CV2 was 1.0 smph, CV6 was 35 smph, and CV5 was 70 smph.  As you noticed, this doesn't usually result in a single linear speed curve.  I haven't messed around with it enough to try what you suggest, but (other than being a huge pain in the butt to set all of those points manually) it might work!

DFF

[Steveruger45]

Hmmmm.  I’m thinking at least in JMRI speed curve table, to select straight line option ( I do vaguely remember something like that was possible along with log curves right side up and upside down varieties etc etc etc, that’s when I got bored and switched off on speed curves).   Once JMRI speed curve type is set then set start cv2 where you want it and then set max cv5 where you want it then the straight line will be calculated automatically for all the intermediate speed steps. Once those are set and fixed Then adjust the mid cv6 to where you want it. I’m thinking or maybe just hoping then JMRI would automatically interpellate between those point and  you would have the equivalent with a straight line speed curve with JMRI doing all the donkey work for all the intermediate speed steps.  Like I say I’ve never played with this and maybe the lokprogrammer will do the same or maybe I’m completely wrong on all this.
Good luck.