Author Topic: Are All Scale Speed Motors Interchangeable?  (Read 2138 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

narrowminded

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 1635
  • Respect: +491
Are All Scale Speed Motors Interchangeable?
« on: October 28, 2019, 11:56:53 PM »
0
Title says it all.  Are all Atlas scale speed motors interchangeable? :| 

In looking up part numbers for specific models I see many different numbers but my sense from having units apart for servicing, not actually measuring, swapping, or replacing motors, I'm thinking they're all the same.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 12:01:28 AM by narrowminded »
Mark G.

peteski

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 21354
  • Gender: Male
  • Honorary Resident Curmudgeon
  • Respect: +1970
    • Coming (not so) soon...
Re: Are All Scale Speed Motors Interchangeable?
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2019, 12:14:51 AM »
0
The open-frame skew-armature 5-pole motors (that are similar to the Kato motors) all have AFAIK the same dimensions.  The multiple part numbers are likely because they have different cradles or flywheel arrangements.  The motor (sans cradle and flywheel) is the same size.
--- Peteski de Snarkski

-"Look at me, I'm satirical!!!"
-"Look at me, I'm anal retentive!!!"
-"Look at me, I have the most posts evahhhh!!!"
-"Look at me, I'm snarky!!!!"
-"Look at me, I have OCD!!!"
-"Look at me, I'm a curmudgeon!!!!"
-"Look at me, I'm not negative, just blunt and honest!!!"

narrowminded

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 1635
  • Respect: +491
Re: Are All Scale Speed Motors Interchangeable?
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2019, 11:37:58 AM »
0
So it seems that the motors are the same but the flywheels may differ?   :|  That's what I was suspicious of.
Mark G.

ryan_wilkerson

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 929
  • Respect: +143
    • ShastaRails.com
Re: Are All Scale Speed Motors Interchangeable?
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2019, 11:58:40 AM »
0
yes there are differences. I found this out when I was converting my Atlas locomotives from the black motors to the scale speed. I had GP7, GP9, GP30, GP35, GP40, B30-7, B36-7, B40-8, SD7, SD9 and SD35. I don't recall which were different!

mmagliaro

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 4640
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +920
    • Maxcow Online
Re: Are All Scale Speed Motors Interchangeable?
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2019, 12:47:51 PM »
0
Ryan... Different how?  Something besides the flywheels, cradle mount or the contact strips?  (some have short strips, some have a longer thing that wraps around the motor one way or another).

ryan_wilkerson

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 929
  • Respect: +143
    • ShastaRails.com
Re: Are All Scale Speed Motors Interchangeable?
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2019, 02:08:36 PM »
0
Sorry I should clarify...I don't know anything about the actual motors being different...they may all be the same.
When actually swapping, I found that I couldn't easily swap from certain models to other models. Maybe it's possible but I just wanted to pop out the motor and put a ScaleSpeed in it's place. I know that's a bit vague.

rrjim1

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 249
  • Respect: +21
Re: Are All Scale Speed Motors Interchangeable?
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2019, 04:46:32 AM »
0
So it seems that the motors are the same but the flywheels may differ?   :|  That's what I was suspicious of.
Just make sure you have a Atlas scale speed motor. Atlas locos have 4 different motors that turn different RPMs. The Atlas scale speed motors that I tested turn between 11,000 - 12,000 RPMs at 12 volts. The older motors and also Kato motors that I tested turn almost 30.000 RPMs at 12 volts and the reason they have an extremely high top speed. I have replaced almost all my older Kato and Atlas locos motors with the better running Atlas scale speed one.   

mark.hinds

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 360
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +23
Re: Are All Scale Speed Motors Interchangeable?
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2019, 02:37:30 PM »
0
Just make sure you have a Atlas scale speed motor. Atlas locos have 4 different motors that turn different RPMs. The Atlas scale speed motors that I tested turn between 11,000 - 12,000 RPMs at 12 volts. The older motors and also Kato motors that I tested turn almost 30.000 RPMs at 12 volts and the reason they have an extremely high top speed. I have replaced almost all my older Kato and Atlas locos motors with the better running Atlas scale speed one.

So if you wanted to purchase a couple of the Atlas scale speed motors to experiment with, where would you recommend that they be obtained from?  (Anyone else can chime in here as well, but I'm looking for people who are sure about their answer). 

For example, I see this:  https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-3058-n-gp-motor-flywheel-assembly.aspx , but not the term "scale speed". 

Thanks in advance, MH
« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 02:39:36 PM by mark.hinds »

rrjim1

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 249
  • Respect: +21
Re: Are All Scale Speed Motors Interchangeable?
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2019, 02:52:31 PM »
0
So if you wanted to purchase a couple of the Atlas scale speed motors to experiment with, where would you recommend that they be obtained from?  (Anyone else can chime in here as well, but I'm looking for people who are sure about their answer). 

For example, I see this:  https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-3058-n-gp-motor-flywheel-assembly.aspx , but not the term "scale speed". 

Thanks in advance, MH
That is a Atlas slow speed motor. If you find a gray end bell Atlas motor it is a scale speed motor.  https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-1625-n-u25b-motor-flywheel-assemb-scale-speed.aspx

Also sooo-much-stuff on ebay usually has n-scale Atlas scale speed motors.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 02:57:11 PM by rrjim1 »

CR4100

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +23
Re: Are All Scale Speed Motors Interchangeable?
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2019, 05:02:23 PM »
0
These are worth a try if you feel confident in your ability to switch the flywheels to a new motor: https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-12V-24-46000RPM-High-Speed-5-Pole-Rotor-Motor-6mm-Dual-Shaft-DIY-RC-Car-Boat/123356124760. You will want to by several as not all of the motors are good but they're cheap enough that it's not a big deal. I have used these to repower several Atlas locos with high-speed motors.
The fabric of reality has begun to fray.

rrjim1

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 249
  • Respect: +21
Re: Are All Scale Speed Motors Interchangeable?
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2019, 05:15:04 PM »
0
These are worth a try if you feel confident in your ability to switch the flywheels to a new motor: https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-12V-24-46000RPM-High-Speed-5-Pole-Rotor-Motor-6mm-Dual-Shaft-DIY-RC-Car-Boat/123356124760. You will want to by several as not all of the motors are good but they're cheap enough that it's not a big deal. I have used these to repower several Atlas locos with high-speed motors.
Not really what I would want for my n-scale locos, I have been working for a long time to get them to run better at real slow speeds.  The Atlas scale speed motor was the answer, not a high speed slot car motor.

narrowminded

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 1635
  • Respect: +491
Re: Are All Scale Speed Motors Interchangeable?
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2019, 06:20:59 PM »
0
These are worth a try if you feel confident in your ability to switch the flywheels to a new motor: https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-12V-24-46000RPM-High-Speed-5-Pole-Rotor-Motor-6mm-Dual-Shaft-DIY-RC-Car-Boat/123356124760. You will want to by several as not all of the motors are good but they're cheap enough that it's not a big deal. I have used these to repower several Atlas locos with high-speed motors.

I have some of those as spares.  And they are scale speed motors, spinning about 18,000* RPM at 12 volts, measured with a tachometer I use around the shop, particularly on my machine tools but also for instances just like this where you want some legitimate data. 

On those motors that you think are bad, try applying 12 volts to the leads and then poking a wire through the brush retainer hole to add a light force to the brush.  Some of them have a skin of oxide on the commutators and this will break through that oxide.  Once running they'll clean themselves up, pretty much immediately.  I suspect they saw some less than optimum storage conditions and part of why they're available on Ebay but once you get a few revolutions on them they run flawlessly.  At least that's what I found.  And yes, they turn about 11,000 RPM at 12 volts. 

The reason I need a couple of motors is because I have two locos that I received with the motors removed, missing, non-existent.  I can make use of bad motors as I only need the flywheels from them.  The flywheels with the hex pocket.

As far as the motors all being the same, it seems that anything that was for a DCC ready chassis should fit.  Some others may have a different configuration on the motor contact strips.

These are things I'm learning from this exercise and so far I think they are true but would invite additions for my knowledge and that of any others following or contributing to this thread. 

Thanks to all for your interest and contributions. :)

*Edit RPM:  First reading was taken without flywheels mounted so target was inadequately mounted and reading was flawed.  After flywheels were mounted the reflective target was properly mounted and proper readings were accomplished.  Edited number reflects the corrected measurements.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 11:17:57 PM by narrowminded »
Mark G.

narrowminded

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 1635
  • Respect: +491
Re: Are All Scale Speed Motors Interchangeable?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2019, 06:40:42 PM »
0
Also, I put a "wanted" request in the Trading Post section and will add it here in case it was not seen there. :| 

I could use a couple of motors in any condition to salvage a couple of sets of flywheels and also for a couple of basic light boards from a DCC ready chassis.  What I have are SD-35's but I know an RS-11 board works (tried one) and suspect any will, even if LEDS might need adjustment.  Any help would be appreciated.  I may add DCC and even sound to these but want to test run for a few hours on DC to be sure all is good before to proceed with any further expenditure. 8)
Mark G.

rrjim1

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 249
  • Respect: +21
Re: Are All Scale Speed Motors Interchangeable?
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2019, 05:17:36 AM »
0
I have some of those as spares.  And they are scale speed motors, spinning about 11,000 RPM at 12 volts, measured with a tachometer I use around the shop, particularly on my machine tools but also for instances just like this where you want some legitimate data. 

On those motors that you think are bad, try applying 12 volts to the leads and then poking a wire through the brush retainer hole to add a light force to the brush.  Some of them have a skin of oxide on the commutators and this will break through that oxide.  Once running they'll clean themselves up, pretty much immediately.  I suspect they saw some less than optimum storage conditions and part of why they're available on Ebay but once you get a few revolutions on them they run flawlessly.  At least that's what I found.  And yes, they turn about 11,000 RPM at 12 volts. 

The reason I need a couple of motors is because I have two locos that I received with the motors removed, missing, non-existent.  I can make use of bad motors as I only need the flywheels from them.  The flywheels with the hex pocket.

As far as the motors all being the same, it seems that anything that was for a DCC ready chassis should fit.  Some others may have a different configuration on the motor contact strips.

These are things I'm learning from this exercise and so far I think they are true but would invite additions for my knowledge and that of any others following or contributing to this thread. 

Thanks to all for your interest and contributions. :)
Well if there description is correct they aren't scale speed motors. Atlas scale speed motors are 12 volts max. and will self destruct at 24 volts. A 24 volt motor can turn 11,000 rpms at 12 volts but that doesn't mean they are scale speed motors. IMO they are probably rejected motors that were wound with the wrong wire size and the reason they are 24 volt motors. I have lots of Atlas flywheels, just pay for shipping, PM me if interested.

peteski

  • Crew
  • *
  • Posts: 21354
  • Gender: Male
  • Honorary Resident Curmudgeon
  • Respect: +1970
    • Coming (not so) soon...
Re: Are All Scale Speed Motors Interchangeable?
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2019, 05:33:31 AM »
0
Well if there description is correct they aren't scale speed motors. Atlas scale speed motors are 12 volts max. and will self destruct at 24 volts. A 24 volt motor can turn 11,000 rpms at 12 volts but that doesn't mean they are scale speed motors. IMO they are probably rejected motors that were wound with the wrong wire size and the reason they are 24 volt motors. I have lots of Atlas flywheels, just pay for shipping, PM me if interested.

I often find that the descriptions or technical specs in Chinese eBay listings for things like motors or LED wildly inaccurate, so those motors could be similar to Atlas scale-speed motors.  I highly doubt they are actually designed to operate on 24 Volts.

For example, have you ever seen a motor manufacturer's rating's look like they do in that eBay listing?
Nominal Rated Input Voltage:    6 V, 9 V, 12 V, 24 V
Actual Rated Input Voltage:    DC 6V-24V
Base RPM:    46000RPM(@24V)

To me this looks like the seller just found a crap-load of motors, and hooked them up to a variable power supply, then came up with those "creative" specifications.  No single motor I have seen was rated for 4 distinct voltages. Usually they are rated for nominal operating voltage, and possibly for maximum voltage (or RPMs).  If you take an Atlas slow-speed motor and run it @24V, it will probably run for a short time at 46k RPMs.  :D

For the price (and "free" shipping) it won't kill one's wallet to get one or ten, and experiment with them.

Going back to the Atlas motors, while a gray plastic end bell is pretty reliable indication of scale speed motor, I also recall either Paul or Cory from Atlas mention that more recent models have scale speed motors which are produced with black, not gray plastic.  I can't find the specific post here, but I could have read that on the Atlas forum which no longer exists.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2019, 05:47:28 AM by peteski »
--- Peteski de Snarkski

-"Look at me, I'm satirical!!!"
-"Look at me, I'm anal retentive!!!"
-"Look at me, I have the most posts evahhhh!!!"
-"Look at me, I'm snarky!!!!"
-"Look at me, I have OCD!!!"
-"Look at me, I'm a curmudgeon!!!!"
-"Look at me, I'm not negative, just blunt and honest!!!"