Author Topic: Milwaukee Road Re-built Little Joe E78 build  (Read 571 times)

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UP4-8-8-4

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Milwaukee Road Re-built Little Joe E78 build
« on: September 04, 2019, 07:48:35 AM »
+7
Shapeways Re-built Milwaukee Road Little Joe E78.
Rebuilt with E unit parts, stainless side grills, cab side windows, windshield, top portion, etc.
 
Chassis highly modified Kato GG1 .
















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nkalanaga

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Re: Milwaukee Road Re-built Little Joe E78 build
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2019, 01:54:41 AM »
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Are those prototype photos after its wreck, or while it was waiting to be scrapped?
N Kalanaga
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UP4-8-8-4

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Re: Milwaukee Road Re-built Little Joe E78 build
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2019, 05:56:36 AM »
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Are those prototype photos after its wreck, or while it was waiting to be scrapped?

After derailment wreck before rebuild.
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UP4-8-8-4

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Re: Milwaukee Road Re-built Little Joe E78 build
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2019, 06:01:40 AM »
+1
QUOTE:

The engineer, Del Hart, was not an experienced engineer. He was a fireman working out of Three Forks, and due to a shortage he was called as engineer, Three Forks to Harlowton and return. He had run the E73 E78 combination eastbound to Harlow, laid over, and caught the same engines along with the Sputnik GP9 No 280 for the westbound return. There was normally no reason to turn electrics at Harlow except for this: EF4's were equipped with two speedometers in each cab, but neither of them worked in the E78! The EF4's were not turned in Harlow so E78 led westbound.

The regulating valve in the E78 was set at 90 psi, but the GP9's was set at 80, and either the brakestand was not cut out on the Geep or it malfunctioned. This was never determined, but explains why Hart's 10 psi applications were ineffective. Hart also claimed that he had a strong blow at the brake valve exhaust during the 20 psi reduction, but that he had to go to emergency to attempt stopping. A more experienced engineer would probably have recognized the situation sooner.

Speed tapes in the E73's cab showed that Hart had accelerated to 60 mph for the short stretch of high speed permitted between MP 1400 and 1404, as he said. More experienced engineers tended to hold speed down during this short stretch as the time gained was relatively insignificant. That is, if there was a speed tape. The actual tape was not presented at the investigation, but only a hand drawn copy.

The substation tape at Francis is consistent with the story of Harts acceleration, but does not show actual speeds.

Hart hit the 10 degree curve too fast and derailed. But there is more relevant data not in the ICC report.

At least two other incidents requiring investigation occurred within four days after the wreck, in which it was reported that trailing units equipped with 26L brakestands were feeding air into the brakepipe even with the brakestand cut out, lending support to Harts claim that he heard a blow.

Also not reported is that there was a broken off railhead 15 feet into the 10 degree curve just 26 feet before the point of the derailment, on the INSIDE rail of the curve. It is also not reported that the lead axle of the E78's trailing truck was out of gauge by being 2 1/2 inches narrow! This was probably the first wheel to derail in in wreck. Hitting the curve at speed, the axles were, of course, thrown against the outside rail and the tread of the narrow axle barely rode on the inside of the railhead, breaking off a 20 inch long piece at railjoint and throwing it to where it was found after the wreck - 10 feet off the side of the track on the embankment. The narrow axle dropped to the ties and the two electrics uncoupled. The articulated rear frame of the E78 slew to the left causing the articulated hinge at the middle of the engine to swing to the right, and front of the front frame also slew to the left, derailng the engine and it overturned. The E78 tipped over onto its right side, but the rails were offset to the left, indicating having been forced in that direction by the slewed frame rather than being pulled to the right by excessive speed.

The ICC report solely blamed excessive speed, but that was only one contributing factor. This was more a case of a perfect storm, and there should probably have been more blame spread around.



« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 06:11:03 AM by UP4-8-8-4 »
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delamaize

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Re: Milwaukee Road Re-built Little Joe E78 build
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2019, 06:40:58 PM »
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QUOTE:
... the Sputnik GP9 No 280...

Ok, I'll bite, what is the sputnik GP9?
Mike

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UP4-8-8-4

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Re: Milwaukee Road Re-built Little Joe E78 build
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2019, 07:52:27 PM »
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Ok, I'll bite, what is the sputnik GP9?

That's a good question ?
Quote from a Milwaukee Road book.
Only GP-9's they owned was # 280 - 331 built in 1959, nothing mentioned about any Sputnik.
Unless the writer was referring to its speed as fast as a rocket/satellite what ever on the 10 degree curve ?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 07:55:21 PM by UP4-8-8-4 »
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Missaberoad

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Re: Milwaukee Road Re-built Little Joe E78 build
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2019, 07:55:29 PM »
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Gp9s were often paired with Little Joe's in the 1950s/early 60s

It's like they were little satilites  :D

Joe Stalin + sputnik

I believe the reason for the geeps had something to do with helping the Joe's start from a dead stop, but stand to be corrected...

Very nice model btw.... I'm going to have to get my hands on a couple kits when I get a few things off my plate!
Hard to resist the Rocky mtn division temptation...
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 07:59:17 PM by Missaberoad »
Ryan in Alberta

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Re: Milwaukee Road Re-built Little Joe E78 build
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2019, 08:02:21 PM »
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WOW, now that make's since -------------------------   :D ;)
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Missaberoad

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Re: Milwaukee Road Re-built Little Joe E78 build
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2019, 08:06:15 PM »
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Here's a quote from Gene Knol on the MILW .io group that supports what I was thinking.

Quote
As I recall, use of the 'sputnik' was related to gear ratios.  The diesels had lower gearing ratios and for this reason were helpful in getting a train started

Source: https://groups.io/g/MILW/message/7786?p=,,,20,0,0,0::Created,,Sputnik,20,2,0,4708717
Ryan in Alberta

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Re: Milwaukee Road Re-built Little Joe E78 build
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2019, 08:24:23 PM »
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Glad you got that figured out, now I can run my Sputnik GP-9 with my Little Joe and be correct --------------------  :D
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wazzou

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Re: Milwaukee Road Re-built Little Joe E78 build
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2019, 09:15:03 PM »
+1
To quote the Morning Sun Book "Under Milwaukee Wires"
William Jansen said...
"When a Joe started out, there were eight motors and they were all in series and if one started slipping - and that was easy to do - the others would start slipping and the whole thing would run away.
So, they would completely lose tractive effort and you had to shut them off and start over.
That's one of the big reasons they had to have the diesel boosters, to increase the starting tractive effort."

The throttle that Laurence Wylie, former MILW electrical engineer, developed on the Joes had the Joe throttle and Geep throttle connected by a rod. 
As the Joe throttle was notched, the comparable tractive effort would be added on the Geep.

Nicknamed "Sputniks" after the Russian Satellite, the Geeps permitted dispatchers to add 16 loads to freights and cut running times from Harlowton to Avery by three hours.

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delamaize

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Re: Milwaukee Road Re-built Little Joe E78 build
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2019, 11:30:27 PM »
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Ah ok, Now that makes sense..... Guess I will need to get a Geep to go with my Little Joe if I ever get the print, and build one.
Mike

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nkalanaga

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Re: Milwaukee Road Re-built Little Joe E78 build
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2019, 02:08:51 AM »
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UP4-8-8-4:   Thank you!  I had heard that it was in a wreck, but had never read anything about the wreck.

I have read, in various places, that "sputnik", in Russian, means "fellow traveler", so the name fits the diesel helpers, even without the satellite connection.

I have also read that the motors were named "LITTLE Joes" because they were the smallest electrics, other than the switchers, on the railroad.  They were dwarfed by an EF-1, much less the later 3 and 4 unit boxcabs.
N Kalanaga
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