Rapido 200

[daniel_leavitt2000]

I was reading Dave Smith's excellent early n scale site today and am a bit curious about the  Rapido 200 line. I know that they ran on 9mm track and that the "200" was supposed to designate the scale. Were these anywhere near 1/200? How did the original F-something scale out in N? If the models were not really 1/200, why call it that?

[wm3798]

Link please!

[Doug G.]

http://davidksmith.com/birth-of-n/index.htm

It is a bit of a mystery because Arnold's intention WAS to have the scale 1/200 but measurements have revealed many of the models were closer to N scale. The only logical explanation is they just scaled them down poorly. Actually, I now remember I got that information from David's site.

Coincidently, I just won an auction and am waiting for A "200" B&O F9 as I have found new interest in the old Arnold stuff.

Doug

[peteski]

I wonder if the reason for the out-of-scale size was because the small electric motors commercially available at that time were too large to fit in 1:200 model locos?

[Doug G.]

Just as I clicked to come back into this thread, it dawned on me that that WAS the exact reason. They didn't have small enough motors although, I always thought that a bit lame of an excuse (and NOT just with these trains) because, why didn't they just design a smaller motor? Heck they were designing all kinds of other stuff for the trains. The materials were certainly available at the time.

The motors would not have had to be THAT much smaller.

Doug

[peteski]

Just as I clicked to come back into this thread, it dawned on me that that WAS the exact reason. They didn't have small enough motors although, I always thought that a bit lame of an excuse (and NOT just with these trains) because, why didn't they just design a smaller motor? Heck they were designing all kinds of other stuff for the trains. The materials were certainly available at the time.

The motors would not have had to be THAT much smaller.

Doug

Good question. Z scale (which is just a bit smaller than 1:200) was commercially introduced in the early '70s by Marklin. So the smaller motors were produced just few years after Arnold 200 was introduced. But looking at the way they fit in the 0-6-0 loco those were likely custom made by Marklin or for Marklin.

[Doug G.]

Britain has used the "motors not small enough" excuse many times for the scale not matching the track gauge many times and I never thought it was a legitimate excuse. Heck, in the States, we always managed. Well, usually, anyway.

Doug

[DKS]

Good question. Z scale (which is just a bit smaller than 1:200) was commercially introduced in the early '70s by Marklin. So the smaller motors were produced just few years after Arnold 200 was introduced. But looking at the way they fit in the 0-6-0 loco those were likely custom made by Marklin or for Marklin.

While Märklin introduced Z Scale in 1972, Arnold began the R&D for Rapido 200 in 1958--more than "just a few years." Motor size was indeed the limiting factor in many cases, and because British 1:1 trains are generally smaller than others, it's the reason British N Scale was 1:148 (and possibly why Japanese N Scale is 1:150). Also, Arnold's manufacturing was behind the technology curve--and remained so--whereas Märklin made exceptionally well-crafted products, including their own motors, which were often integrated directly into the loco frame. Curiously, Märklin was preparing to jump into N Scale in 1968, but nixed their own plans.

Märklin: http://davidksmith.com/birth-of-n/marklin.htm

Arnold: http://davidksmith.com/birth-of-n/arnold.htm

British N: http://davidksmith.com/birth-of-n/british.htm

Japanese N: http://davidksmith.com/birth-of-n/japanese.htm

 

[nkalanaga]

Large motors could be part of the reason Japanese N is 1:150, but I think the main reason is that their trains are narrow gauge.  The larger scale makes them look "right" with standard gauge trains from other countries.

A true Japanese 1:160 model would be ideal for Z gauge track.  With the number of countries using 42 inch gauge, there would probably be a market for it, besides the obvious American Nn3 kitbashers.

[DKS]

Large motors could be part of the reason Japanese N is 1:150, but I think the main reason is that their trains are narrow gauge.  The larger scale makes them look "right" with standard gauge trains from other countries.

According to the research I did (translating a number of Japanese websites and discussion boards), it was motor size. Track gauge was a whole other ball of wax: they more or less chose to ignore that problem, just as the British had.

A true Japanese 1:160 model would be ideal for Z gauge track.  With the number of countries using 42 inch gauge, there would probably be a market for it, besides the obvious American Nn3 kitbashers.

Not quite. The closest you can get is to model in TT Gauge and use 9 mm track.

See http://davidksmith.com/birth-of-n/japanese.htm for a detailed analysis.

[EL3632]

...The larger scale makes them look "right" with standard gauge trains from other countries.

...I mean, you're not wrong. The prototype EF65 pictured is 54 ft 2 in, the ALCO FA is 53 ft 1 in, for perspective.
Even though the EF65 is cape gauge, here it looks like it could share a line with the FA.

[nkalanaga]

TT on 9mm track works fine, but a true 1:160 model of cape gauge would be 6.675mm, quite close to Z gauge at 6.5mm.  Z gauge actually scales to 41 inches in N scale. 

The Kato center-cab switcher that ConCor used to import looks quite good as an Nn3 diesel, when put on a Marklin 6-axle chassis, even if it is 1:150. 

[VonRyan]

TT on 9mm track works fine, but a true 1:160 model of cape gauge would be 6.675mm, quite close to Z gauge at 6.5mm.  Z gauge actually scales to 41 inches in N scale. 

The Kato center-cab switcher that ConCor used to import looks quite good as an Nn3 diesel, when put on a Marklin 6-axle chassis, even if it is 1:150.

There's a bit of a modeling movement in Japan that revolves around re-gauging stock models down to 6.5mm gauge.
IIRC it has been given the name of Nj for "N Japan"

[RRRover]

Wow! This link answered a huge question I had. I received a Minitrix 1:180 Scale passenger set - German diesel and three cars - in a collection. Very well done diecast metal and they look great, but no wheel flanges! No markings either, but they appear at this link. Now I know!

http://davidksmith.com/birth-of-n/index.htm

It is a bit of a mystery because Arnold's intention WAS to have the scale 1/200 but measurements have revealed many of the models were closer to N scale. The only logical explanation is they just scaled them down poorly. Actually, I now remember I got that information from David's site.

Coincidently, I just won an auction and am waiting for A "200" B&O F9 as I have found new interest in the old Arnold stuff.

Doug

[peteski]

Wow! This link answered a huge question I had. I received a Minitrix 1:180 Scale passenger set - German diesel and three cars - in a collection. Very well done diecast metal and they look great, but no wheel flanges! No markings either, but they appear at this link. Now I know!

Is this the Diesel push toy?







I own that one and it does seem close to N scale.