Hand laid turnout question

[narrowminded]

Oops yes Nn3. For N I use those 3-point gauges for C55. Never really messed with C40 for standard gauge.

How do you like the three point when working with code 55?  Not having used either style I can only guess at which might be better and can envision benefits to both.  One advantage might be not chasing a rolling gauge all over the board.  Maybe the answer is to make both.    For straight sections I could see a double grooved strip that holds perfectly straight as well as gauge.

And while on the track subject (not switches), do you use anything special to do tie spacing or centering?  I've got a few ideas but was wondering what experienced folks have come up with.

[Angus Shops]

I have the stock aid tool and the angle is 'not very big'. I don't have a tool to accurately measure it, but I'd estimate it at about 5 - 7 degrees, just enough to ensure the point rail can contact the stock rail even if there is a bit of crud stuck between the two rails. I actually find it useful in that it holds the rail solidly while you file away at it. The stock aid tool is not switch size specific like the frog/point tool, and can used for any size switch. I can't see why, with a bit of care and maybe some extra filing, you couldn't file usable points and frog rails for a #5 or 7 switch using a #6 frog/point tool.
I'll be building a few dozen switches (I think I've completed 45 or so so far), so I feel OK with investment in the various tools, although they are not inexpensive. I'll be using mostly #7 switches so I bought the #7 jig, #7 point/frog tool and the stock rail tool. The jig is great and makes building an accurate, good looking and smooth operating switch easy. However, if anyone tells you that rip one out in an hour, they're full of... I've built switches using paper templates and various track gauges for my previous layout and they were not a precise and accurate as the ones built with the Fast Tracks jig. When I get around to building the #9's I'll need, I'll buy the #9 jig and use my #7 frog/point tool for these parts.
Geoff

[Chris333]

The 3 points work fine for me. I think you bar idea is good. Maybe make other flangeway gaps in it too.

About making a roller gauge. If i set up tooling to make a railhead gap. Is the gap it's gonna leave the exact same size of the tool?

For tie spacing I just use FT paper templates.

[jagged ben]

The angle on the Stock Aid is 30deg (from the vertical direction of the rail).  I measured with bevel gauge and protractor.    (Sorry Angus, but your eye is way off.)

For all the flaws of the Fast Tracks approach (I've developed methods for overcoming them), if you have more money than time the tools are easily worth it.  I either laugh or cringe when people say you can get better results without the point tool.  I mean, yes you can, but I don't have the time to hone that skill to perfection.  With the point tools I can make a functional, good looking turnout in two hours, which is what I'm asking for.    Also I've seen a lot of handlaid turnouts - a hundred or so at the club, made by half a dozen or more different guys over the years - and I can tell you that the results when not using a jig certainly vary considerably. Maybe some guys can get better results, but not all.     Fast Tracks' point tools undoubtedly raise the floor. 

If you're beginning, and you can part with the money at least for a while, I recommend at least getting the point tool to compare results to your best effort at another method.  You can always sell the tool if you think you can reliably get a better result without it.   Either that, or look at the proto87 stuff.

[narrowminded]

About making a roller gauge. If i set up tooling to make a railhead gap. Is the gap it's gonna leave the exact same size of the tool?

Not sure I understand your question.  Are you asking if it will set the gauge properly?  If so, yes as that would be the whole point.  The groove would be the same size as the railhead with a thousandths or so over the rail's max tolerance and probably a small angle to aid in dropping it on and not grabbing going through a radius.  According to Fast tracks ME holds their rail at +/- .001".  I would use the NMRA spec for selecting the track spacing.  The tool will be good.  It'll also be thought through which I haven't done yet.

[Chris333]

Guess what I ment was. If I make a tool that is .025" wide does it leave a .025" wide groove.

[narrowminded]

Guess what I ment was. If I make a tool that is .025" wide does it leave a .025" wide groove.

OK, I think I get it.  Are you asking if a tool placed in between two parts, then those two parts are rigidly attached, when the tool is slid out will the gap be exactly what the tool was?  If so, technically no because a true zero clearance is a press fit.  But if all was held properly it will be in tenths, maybe as much as a half thousandths depending on all other tolerances in the latch up of the attachment.  Again, if I'm understanding the question, think of a feeler gauge in use.  That's basically what you're doing as just described.  A feeler gauge that's really tight but moves is probably the true dimension but one that slips freely (not sloppy) is probably no more than a couple of tenths from the true number.  Somehow I don't think this is your question.

[nkalanaga]

For most of my Nn3 turnouts I used the N NMRA gauge for flangeways.  The Z standards are loose enough that the N works fine, and that way I could use regauged N wheelsets on cars that needed them.

[Chris333]

Yeah that was the question.

Guess I could always shave the tool down a hair to get the gap right.

[narrowminded]

The angle on the Stock Aid is 30deg (from the vertical direction of the rail).  I measured with bevel gauge and protractor.    (Sorry Angus, but your eye is way off.)

Thanks, Ben.  That's about what I was guessing from the picture of the tool.  And if I understand correctly, the reason for the angle is to be sure to clear the rail head while filing.  But that also will remove more than was necessary from the flat bottom of the foot, losing some of that attaching surface.  On bigger rail there may still be enough for a good, strong attachment with plenty of windage but working with code 40 rail that concerns me.  The foot is only .040" to start with and the web is only.008".  Especially with that added angle I am concerned that I could easily get that foot down in the vicinity of .020" when working by eye and with a file.   With the mill I can take it down to just the web which will leave me a true .024".  I'm not sure I want ANY less than that for the joint integrity but also just keeping enough of a surface that the rail will be stable and square during assembly and soldering.  I'm not really worried with the milled edge prep as described but am concerned, maybe unnecessarily, with filing and by eye.  I'm the first to say it can be done, and I could do it, but also the first to say I don't need THAT headache if I'm to make more than one of these.  One piece might be a fun challenge.  By the third or fourth one it just becomes torture.

For all the flaws of the Fast Tracks approach (I've developed methods for overcoming them), if you have more money than time the tools are easily worth it.  I either laugh or cringe when people say you can get better results without the point tool.  I mean, yes you can, but I don't have the time to hone that skill to perfection.  With the point tools I can make a functional, good looking turnout in two hours, which is what I'm asking for.    Also I've seen a lot of handlaid turnouts - a hundred or so at the club, made by half a dozen or more different guys over the years - and I can tell you that the results when not using a jig certainly vary considerably. Maybe some guys can get better results, but not all.     Fast Tracks' point tools undoubtedly raise the floor. 

If you're beginning, and you can part with the money at least for a while, I recommend at least getting the point tool to compare results to your best effort at another method.  You can always sell the tool if you think you can reliably get a better result without it.   Either that, or look at the proto87 stuff.

I agree about the point tool.  No sense making that a challenge when the tool will put on the correct angle, first time every time, and painlessly.  I actually thought about skipping buying that one and making a filing tool or a mill fixture to mill them.  If I had a LOT of them to do I probably would do the mill fixture but for just a few over time the setup wouldn't be worth it.  At least that's my thought going in.  Direct experience will teach some things on this and the other things that never entered my mind. 

I've already ordered the tools and supplies to get started with a few Nn3, #4, code 40 switches and track.  Something to play with my really small power chassis' and critter stuff that I've been dragging my feet on for too long now.    I'm sure this is just a start.

[narrowminded]

Yeah that was the question.

Guess I could always shave the tool down a hair to get the gap right.

It's hard to give a 100% confident answer without knowing the whole story and maybe even seeing the parts but with your experience with tools, if you are comfortable with the rig going in and the resulting feel of the gauge, if you feel it's a right nice fit you can probably assume that you're no worse than a half thousandths out and maybe as good as a tenth.

[narrowminded]

Yeah that was the question.

Guess I could always shave the tool down a hair to get the gap right.

What tolerance are you after and how rigid is the set up?  Is this a track thing or something more serious, like a VW?   I answered as I did because it's technically correct but a good set up with a gauge block will be totally fine for anything I can imagine you'd be doing around a model train and beyond.

Unless it's something super critical, like a bearing fit or something, just make the tool on size with any minor error undersized.  Do you even have a tool to measure to tenths?   You can use calipers and if they're really good, you might be able to split the lines and guess at it, probably within a half thousandth, but to be really sure you should be using a better gauge. 

Around the shop I seldom use anything other than 6" dial calipers.  Most times parts have tolerances in the whole thousandths so a decent set of 6" calipers is totally adequate.  And when they're yours, they're good ones, and you've been using them enough to get used to them you're probably measuring to a half thousandth reliably even though they only promise .001".  But when it really matters the micrometers come out, the half thousandths indicators, and the wire gauges.  When that's not enough then it's over to the optical comparator.    I don't have one of those at home but I do have everything else mentioned in the size ranges I'm working with here and in a pinch, have access to an optical comparitor and much, much more.  I just can't abuse that access.  It's a courtesy extended pretty much for me on my personal stuff.
 

[Chris333]

I suggested roller gauges, but I don't have any myself. But I did just get some 5/16" brass rod so I'd like to make some roller gauges 

It's a Taig lathe so I'm not sure how rigid it is.

[narrowminded]

The lathe should be fine.  That's what I'm using, albeit with some rework and a Harbor Freight badge.
 When I get home I'll try to go through it.  In the meantime, do you have a parting tool?  And a carriage stop? 

[Chris333]

A Taig at Harbor Freight?
http://www.taigtools.com/mlathe.html

Yes I have a parting tool and a stop.