Author Topic: Waterproof vs: Non-waterproof India Ink  (Read 2158 times)

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narrowminded

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Waterproof vs: Non-waterproof India Ink
« on: September 10, 2018, 11:16:08 PM »
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Waterproof vs: non-waterproof India Ink for a wash. :|  I'm about to try this for the first time and picked up a bottle of Higgins waterproof ink, unaware of the option.  It wasn't until I was searching for starting mix ratios that I found there were choices and for the few who mentioned those choices they were pretty emphatic about using non-waterproof.  There seemed to options on the alcohol strength with no hard and fast rule.

And while we're at it, for weathering over acrylics, clear lacquer seal first to prevent ill effects on the paint or go straight over the acrylic?  My concern is the alcohol softening the paint.

Thanks. 8)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 11:18:19 PM by narrowminded »
Mark G.

peteski

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Re: Waterproof vs: Non-waterproof India Ink
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2018, 11:28:09 PM »
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Interesting. I always thought that the ink called "India Ink" was waterproof by design. I learned something new today.  Is the non-waterproof ink still called India Ink, or just generic black ink?
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jpwisc

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Re: Waterproof vs: Non-waterproof India Ink
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2018, 01:18:10 AM »
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The waterproof is still caked India Ink. I picked mine up at Blick. I diluted it with 70% IPA and it seems to work.
Karl
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narrowminded

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Re: Waterproof vs: Non-waterproof India Ink
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2018, 02:15:49 AM »
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From what I read and pondering the claims it seems like they're saying the waterproof versions doesn't flow as well on painted and plastic surfaces.  They didn't say specifically but I suspect either would work well on wood due to the natural porosity.

Especially concerned about the alcohol, do folks seal with lacquer thinner before to use the India ink wash?   Or any wash, for that matter? :|
Mark G.

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Re: Waterproof vs: Non-waterproof India Ink
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2018, 02:23:40 AM »
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So, looked on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_ink and learned that:
Basic India ink is composed of a variety of fine soot, known as lampblack, combined with water to form a liquid. No binder material is necessary: the carbon molecules are in colloidal suspension and form a waterproof layer after drying. A binding agent such as gelatin or, more commonly, shellac may be added to make the ink more durable once dried. India ink is commonly sold in bottled form, as well as a solid form as an inkstick (most commonly, a stick), which must be ground and mixed with water before use. If a binder is used, India ink may be waterproof or non-waterproof.
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wazzou

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Re: Waterproof vs: Non-waterproof India Ink
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2018, 02:41:34 AM »
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Water soluable India Ink is what you want.
Bryan

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narrowminded

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Re: Waterproof vs: Non-waterproof India Ink
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2018, 04:16:14 PM »
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Water soluable India Ink is what you want.

Thanks.  And being water based is it acceptable to dilute with water instead of alcohol?  I could see alcohol used on bare wood for staining but am concerned about using it in a wash to be applied over acrylics.

Especially when using the wash over acrylics, however diluted, is it best to seal with clear first?  Or might it be better not to use India ink at all but to use very diluted acrylic paint?  Please forgive the simplicity of these questions but this type of finish detailing on miniature modelling is new to me.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 04:22:02 PM by narrowminded »
Mark G.

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Re: Waterproof vs: Non-waterproof India Ink
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2018, 04:30:18 PM »
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I definitely would not use the India ink in a diluted mixture of Alcohol for weathering freightcars.
Instead, I would use water soluble Oil Paints like those from Windsor & Newton.
I do use the Ink/Alcohol on structures and vehicles all the time but would be hesitant to do so on a freightcar I had invested a lot of time in weathering.
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peteski

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Re: Waterproof vs: Non-waterproof India Ink
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2018, 05:43:00 PM »
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One thing to consider is that alcohol is a wetting agent which reduces the surface tension of water.  Using just water in the India Ink wash on plastic or painted surface will likely cause the wash to bead up. With alcohol, the liquid wash will flow out nicely.  But I suppose some dishwashing detergent added to water could be used to reduce the surface tension.
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Santa Fe Guy

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Re: Waterproof vs: Non-waterproof India Ink
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2018, 01:29:33 AM »
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Always Dulcote before any weathering no mater what type of weathering you are going to use.
When weathering my freight cars I used Artists Oil paint thinned with odorless thinners, first, light wash of Vandyke Brown.
Sometimes even just one coat was sufficient.
Rod.
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narrowminded

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Re: Waterproof vs: Non-waterproof India Ink
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2018, 04:18:53 AM »
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Always Dulcote before any weathering no mater what type of weathering you are going to use.

Rod.

I love absolutes. :D  That helps.  Thanks.
Mark G.

narrowminded

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Re: Waterproof vs: Non-waterproof India Ink
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2018, 01:42:55 AM »
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Thanks for the replies.  I have purchased water based India ink under the Higgins brand, marked as "Eternal",  archive quality, especially for fountain pens.  It has a very strong ammonia smell rather than alcohol and at least this far I've diluted with just water. 

The only things I've used it on this far is the internal wood rack/ support structure, walkway, and railing piece assembly as well as the concrete base from a Walthers Walton and Son Lumber kit.  The building is assembled using the shed option rather than the fully enclosed building, bashed to reduce the length by three bays, but otherwise standard.  The paint is air brushed craft acrylic paint thinned with water, approximately 4 parts paint to three water, and Woodland Scenics concrete paint on the slab floor, all sealed with Krylon Flat Crystal Clear.  So far the India ink wash seems OK for this purpose.  I applied it with a typical finger pump spray bottle and left it to dry on the superstructure parts, rinsed and wiped it a little on the concrete base.  I am reluctant to try it on the exterior walls at this point as they are pale yellow with red trim and will magnify any dark wash tremendously.  I don't trust myself just yet with this procedure but with some experience will likely revisit that. 

Thanks for replies this far.  Any suggestion and critique is welcome. 8)

Roof, ladders, and floor are not attached.  Ladders are not sealed and weathered.  Roof may receive tarpaper treatment. Not sure yet.  Next may be lighting and then lumber stacks.  Considering two end floor bays to be divided with a crude wall and devoted to saws and such for custom cuts.

And a few pics...

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« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 01:50:40 AM by narrowminded »
Mark G.

peteski

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Re: Waterproof vs: Non-waterproof India Ink
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2018, 01:58:50 AM »
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Actually I would be more worried more about ammonia-based ink attacking acrylic paints, than the water-based ink with some alcohol mixed in.  But that is based on anecdotal evidence rather than on personal experience.  Then again, if you sealed it with Krylon clear (I assume that is not a water-based clear), then that should have created a barrier preventing the wash from attacking theacrylic craft paint.  Heck, that Krylon clear is also most likely a safe barrier for alcohol-based washes.

You can always paint a scrap piece of the kit with your paint and test the compatibility of your wash.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 02:03:12 AM by peteski »
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Santa Fe Guy

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Re: Waterproof vs: Non-waterproof India Ink
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2018, 02:10:45 AM »
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Looks good Mark.
If you have a lot of wood to stain soak it in the India ink mix for a while and to get even more variation use two or even three tubs of differing strength mix.
Timber looks good after it is left to dry.
Put all three piles in the one pile then randomly select the timber whilst you build.
You get good variation this way.
Have fun.
Rod.
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narrowminded

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Re: Waterproof vs: Non-waterproof India Ink
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2018, 02:30:07 AM »
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Actually I would be more worried more about ammonia-based ink attacking acrylic paints, than the water-based ink with some alcohol mixed in.... Then again, if you sealed it with Krylon clear (I assume that is not a water-based clear), then that should have created a barrier preventing the wash from attacking theacrylic craft paint.  Heck, that Krylon clear is also most likely a safe barrier for alcohol-based washes.

Yes, Pete.  That was the question I was asking early in the thread, about sealing, and the advice was always seal first before any weathering.  I agree that the ammonia would be troublesome on craft paints as that is what I use (Windex) to clean the airbrush after spraying cheap acrylics.  It cleans it out perfectly like lacquer thinner does for solvent based paints. 8)
Mark G.