Scale Trains Tier 4 Sound -- Speaker Improvement

[wmcbride]

Thanks to John Colombo's pioneering work, I have installed ESU sound decoders in Intermountain F units, FVM GEVOs, and  BLI PA unit.

I recently purchased  a Scale Trains Norfolk Southern Tier 4 with sound. It's a beautiful engine and the ditch lights and headlights are bright and it runs smoothly. My only complaint is the sound. The horn sounds like, well, a Soundtraxx effort. It is unlike the clear horns my FVM GEVOs with ESU produce with my self-made Colombo-style speaker enclosures.

I know there was some discussion on the ST Tier 4 thread about a different sound file. I am going to pursue that but my gut tells me it's the speaker and enclosure. It's not that there is a loose wire to a speaker -- it's not a "staticy" sound. It's just so much more toward the old MRC end of sound than what ESU can deliver in FVM GEVO's for example.

Is anyone else investigating improving the speaker and/or speaker installation in these ST Tier 4's?

I will play around with the other GEVO sound file and report back but my sense is it's the speaker.

[lashedup]

I would download the other Tier 4 GEVO sound file, install that and see what you think before you put a lot of effort into the mechanical bits. I adjusted the individual sounds afterwards and I'm pretty happy.

-jamie

[jdcolombo]

Hi Bill.

The problem with the Tier 4 almost certainly is the fuel tank speaker install.  I don't have one (WAY too new for my 1957 layout!), but photos on Spookshow's site indicates that the speaker doesn't have a sealed enclosure, and is just sort of stuck to a cutout in the fuel tank.

This is the kind of installation I feared most manufacturers would adopt, since it is "doable" from an assembly point of view.  But it will never provide the best sound.

Alternatives: the fuel tank area is huge on that loco.  It does look like there are two screws on either side of the speaker cutout, which may simply hold on the bottom of the fuel tank as a sort of weight.  If you can remove one of these screws without messing something up (You'd still have one holding the weight, if that is what it is), then I'd build a long enclosure with the speaker offset to one side, just deep enough to fit inside the outline of the fuel tank area to the right (or left) of the other screw.  That "offset" design is what I used to replace the IM SD40-2 speaker, using a 9x16mm, and it sounded a whole lot better.

If the screw in the fuel tank is critical (e.g., it holds the motor cradle or something), then I'd look to mill the frame behind the front truck.  You may be able to stash an 8x12mm in a decently-sized enclosure there.

John C.

[wmcbride]

Hi Bill.

The problem with the Tier 4 almost certainly is the fuel tank speaker install.  I don't have one (WAY too new for my 1957 layout!), but photos on Spookshow's site indicates that the speaker doesn't have a sealed enclosure, and is just sort of stuck to a cutout in the fuel tank.

This is the kind of installation I feared most manufacturers would adopt, since it is "doable" from an assembly point of view.  But it will never provide the best sound.

Alternatives: the fuel tank area is huge on that loco.  It does look like there are two screws on either side of the speaker cutout, which may simply hold on the bottom of the fuel tank as a sort of weight.  If you can remove one of these screws without messing something up (You'd still have one holding the weight, if that is what it is), then I'd build a long enclosure with the speaker offset to one side, just deep enough to fit inside the outline of the fuel tank area to the right (or left) of the other screw.  That "offset" design is what I used to replace the IM SD40-2 speaker, using a 9x16mm, and it sounded a whole lot better.

If the screw in the fuel tank is critical (e.g., it holds the motor cradle or something), then I'd look to mill the frame behind the front truck.  You may be able to stash an 8x12mm in a decently-sized enclosure there.

John C.

Thanks, John.

I see what you mean on the Spookshow photos. It's what many of us had worried about. I'm going to play around with the tank over the holiday and see what can be done.

Actually, you need one of these to chug through Lorain...

[wmcbride]

I would download the other Tier 4 GEVO sound file, install that and see what you think before you put a lot of effort into the mechanical bits. I adjusted the individual sounds afterwards and I'm pretty happy.

-jamie

Thanks. I am going to compare the sound file but as John Colombo pointed out that speaker needs an enclosure to really help. This will be interesting.

[wmcbride]

What I found in my unit was a bit different than what Spookshow's photos show.

The speaker was held in/enclosed into the speaker recess by clear tape. One side of the speaker was uncovered by the tape. This is the side on which the fuel tank cover has a piece of extra depth to try and cover the speaker on that side. So this speaker design is pretty open hence the sound it is producing.

I'll try to post some photos later.

[wmcbride]

The volume within the metal underfame allocated for the speaker is, according to my calipers, 12mm wide x 17mm long and 4.7mm deep. Increased depth for a speaker and enclosure could be had by thinning the bottom of the plastic fuel tank or cutting through it entirely.

Here are some photos of the factory installation:

[Seligman Sub]

I'd be very interested in seeing what the group might come up with as an enhancement of the factory installation.  I just got my first one and man the detail and performance are superb but the prime mover sound is garbage.  I have good hearing and even in a dead quiet room its almost impossible to discern the actual exhaust note. Even as the prime mover notches up through the RPM range it just sounds like something "mechanical" rather than a 4,400hp diesel (yes I know we're using tiny speakers.)  Only when I put my ear up next to it can I discern these sounds.  Can anyone compare the sound that these produce vs. some of the custom Loksound installs in FVM/Kato ES44s?

 

[peteski]

I'd be very interested in seeing what the group might come up with as an enhancement of the factory installation.  I just got my first one and man the detail and performance are superb but the prime mover sound is garbage.  I have good hearing and even in a dead quiet room its almost impossible to discern the actual exhaust note. Even as the prime mover notches up through the RPM range it just sounds like something "mechanical" rather than a 4,400hp diesel (yes I know we're using tiny speakers.)  Only when I put my ear up next to it can I discern these sounds.  Can anyone compare the sound that these produce vs. some of the custom Loksound installs in FVM/Kato ES44s?

Sounds like you would be happy with BLI's Thunderous Sound^TM (or whatever it is called).  While I'm sure the sound quality can be improved a bit, you will not ever hear a 4,400hp sound out of a tiny speaker.  Do you have any other diesel sound-equipped N scale locos to compare with this one, or ones you are happy with their sound?  Or it this your only sound-equipped model of a diesel electric loco>

[wmcbride]

I'd be very interested in seeing what the group might come up with as an enhancement of the factory installation.  I just got my first one and man the detail and performance are superb but the prime mover sound is garbage.  I have good hearing and even in a dead quiet room its almost impossible to discern the actual exhaust note. Even as the prime mover notches up through the RPM range it just sounds like something "mechanical" rather than a 4,400hp diesel (yes I know we're using tiny speakers.)  Only when I put my ear up next to it can I discern these sounds.  Can anyone compare the sound that these produce vs. some of the custom Loksound installs in FVM/Kato ES44s?

The sound on the Tier 4 is a lot "less" compared to an FVM GEVO with a Loksound Micro and enclosed speaker. I'm going to see what I can do in terms of adding an enclosed speaker to replace the one installed by the factory.

I have been very happy with the Colombo method in adding sound to IM F units and FVM GEVOs in terms of delivering scale sound, ie, sound that sounds "right" on the layout.

[daniel_leavitt2000]

So the speaker shoots "up" right?

One would need to have it shoot "down", add a spacer between the baffle and the tank. Remove the material between the holes in the fuel tank. Then add .005 styrene on the bottom of the tank. It wouldn't produce a large enclosure, but it might be better than nothing.

[Seligman Sub]

The sound on the Tier 4 is a lot "less" compared to an FVM GEVO with a Loksound Micro and enclosed speaker. I'm going to see what I can do in terms of adding an enclosed speaker to replace the one installed by the factory.

I have been very happy with the Colombo method in adding sound to IM F units and FVM GEVOs in terms of delivering scale sound, ie, sound that sounds "right" on the layout.

Yes this is what I believed to be true.  This is my first N scale sound that I've personally owned but heard IM's SD-40s new units at a friends as well as Mr. Colombo's presentations here via YT and in every case the exhaust note was clearly discernable as well as individual notches.  I could live with the sound but I'm not happy with it and am wondering if it might be more prudent to buy the DCC ready versions and do custom sound installs. 

@peteski  - My choice of the phrase 'sounds like something "mechanical" rather than a 4,400hp diesel' was an unfortunate phrase.  I'm ok with "scale sound" as long as I can hear the prime mover clearly.  I heard the SurroundTraxx demo some years ago and it sounded awesome but to my ears it took too much away from the models because it sounded too real if that makes sense.  On top of that it was ridiculously expensive to implement on anything but a small layout. 

[jdcolombo]

Here's what can be done with an ESU LokSound in a FVM GEVO.  This uses a 9x16mm speaker in a custom enclosure.

I describe the installation process here:

https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=31587.0

Today you can probably fit one of the ESU boards (73199 or 73100) in the FVM, but you'd need to find room for a speaker.  As I noted above, the manufacturers are adopting fuel-tank speaker installs, which in my view is not the best choice.  I understand why they do it (for simple assembly at the manufacturing level), but it won't produce the best sound.  For best sound, you need something like I've done in the GEVO, or at the very least, a sealed enclosure for the fuel tank install, similar to what I did for the IM SD40-2 here:

https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=42290.msg532078;topicseen#msg532078

(For the record, I think the IM SD40-2 sound file is itself a bit "thin" sounding, and I think the turbo is too loud; there are now alternative SD40-2 files that may sound better, but none of them will sound very good without some work on the speaker).

John C.

[peteski]

@peteski  - My choice of the phrase 'sounds like something "mechanical" rather than a 4,400hp diesel' was an unfortunate phrase.  I'm ok with "scale sound" as long as I can hear the prime mover clearly.  I heard the SurroundTraxx demo some years ago and it sounded awesome but to my ears it took too much away from the models because it sounded too real if that makes sense.  On top of that it was ridiculously expensive to implement on anything but a small layout.

I absolutely agree with your statement.  Sound "too real" for a model is a very good description.  Like you, I also would not expect or want a 5-inch-long scale model of a locomotive to have a deep-bass Diesel rumble sound which you can feel in your gut.  Just like the model which is scaled down, I feel that its sound needs to be scaled down too.

[wmcbride]

I absolutely agree with your statement.  Sound "too real" for a model is a very good description.  Like you, I also would not expect or want a 5-inch-long scale model of a locomotive to have a deep-bass Diesel rumble sound which you can feel in your gut.  Just like the model which is scaled down, I feel that its sound needs to be scaled down too.

This has been exactly my experience in sound on 2-rail O scale, HO, and N.

O scale is what it is and can be very impressive. The locomotive is big, it's typically close to you unless you have a giant layout, and the sound "kind of" what one would expect from that scale distance from a real locomotive.

The first Loksound decoder I heard was in an HO Bowser C430. I was flabbergasted at the air horn. Wow! Then came the Colombo Method and my installations in F units and a few FVM GEVOs. The sound was much more scale than anything I had in HO. The prime mover in engines 12 feet away sounded like it "should" -- an engine at a great distance. The horns were clear and the volume and presentation was right for what my mind perceived for a train that far away.

I think adding a sealed speaker in the ST Tier 4 fuel tank might do the trick. Finding somewhere else will involve some serious milling with the subsequent jeopardy that entails.