Author Topic: Kato dash 9 loksound install  (Read 1346 times)

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Steveruger45

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Kato dash 9 loksound install
« on: May 04, 2018, 11:13:17 PM »
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Hey everyone,
Has anyone done a Kato dash 9 yet.  I just got one thinking in a loco this size it would be easy.  So far my measurements are telling me it will not be.  I don’t want to disturb the motor cradle supports/clips holes areas and I’m finding the 73100 and the 73199 would both be awkward and likely too tall to fit under the shell.  Now I’m leaning back to the regular select micro again either under the shell just aft of the motor or even in the tank.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 11:16:16 PM by Steveruger45 »
Steve
Atascocita, Texas

tehachapifan

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Re: Kato dash 9 loksound install
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2018, 12:40:43 PM »
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Uh, oh...don't like hearing that it might not fit! I was planning to do a couple Dash-9 installs and very recently had the hood off of one to take a look at how the 73100 might fit and thought it looked doable. However, I didn't evaluate for vertical clearance. That said, I have successfully put a 73100 in an Atlas 8-40BW that also has a low hood midsection like the C44-9W....not that this means it will fit the same way.

...One thing nice about having a LokProgrammer now is, if a board doesn't fit in a loco as planned, it can be put into something else and reprogrammed with an appropriate sound file. This was much more problematic prior to getting the programmer.

« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 12:44:05 PM by tehachapifan »

Steveruger45

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Re: Kato dash 9 loksound install
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2018, 12:51:24 PM »
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Hi Russ,
Thanks for the insight. Yeah, to me so far at least, and I’m not entirely through with figuring out a 73100 install in the Kato Dash 9 yet, but it looks to me that there just isn’t enough height at the rear of the motor without compromising the motor cradle mounting tabs/holes by just under 1mm. 
Yep, I’m glad I got a lokprogrammer for the same reasons.  I have another project to start today putting a loksound in another B23-7. Last time I did one of these I used the 73800 but this time I’m going to see if I can get a 73100 in it instead. If I can I will post it for info and if it goes well that would mean we have alternative options too on the Bxx-7’s
Steve
Atascocita, Texas

RBrodzinsky

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Re: Kato dash 9 loksound install
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2018, 01:25:08 PM »
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The Dash-9 frames give a lot of room for a wired install (with some frame mods). With all the lighting choices on these, too, I would lean towards the wired, rather than either of the Direct boards.
Rick Brodzinsky
Chief Engineer - JACALAR Railroad
Silicon Valley FreeMo-N

Steveruger45

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Re: Kato dash 9 loksound install
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2018, 02:49:36 PM »
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Thanks Rick.  I just came back from vernier calipering and note taking. I am at the same conclusion too. A little off the frame behind the motor cradle and above the flywheel looks to be about it for frame mods for a hardwire 73800 and room behind it to for at least an 8x12 speaker. Caps could go further forward along the frame with some minor mods in way so they sit under the taller part of the shell.

BTW the 73100 will go in the Bxx-7’s with some minor frame mods. Inserting the aft section of the board into the frames aft contact slots, hardwire motor contacts to the board, remove a little of the frame that snugs over the dc board above the motor so the 73100’s motor contacts in the middle don’t touch the frame and to gain just a hairs more width for the boards narrow section overall. The front of the board would float though and the fwd light insert in the cab would need shortening a little to clear.  The latter was true to on the 73800 install I did on this loco too as up front is where I put the speaker on that one. On a 73100 install the speaker would go behind the board aft.
Now it’s time to reprogram a decoder or three.
Steve
Atascocita, Texas

woodone

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Re: Kato dash 9 loksound install
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2018, 07:28:44 PM »
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Steve,
I have done one with the73800 and a SoundTrax Econami. Machine off has much as you can over the rear truck and hs far forward has you can. I use a 9x16 speaker but I mount it in the front just ahead of the motor and make a custom enclosure,
Oh BTW I remove the heat shrink too, and re locate the violet wire on the Lok Sound 73800. Then the decoder will fit into the shell with out grinding on the inside of the shell.
I have photos of this, but it seems like I am posting them wrong for everyone to see them.
Waiting for Pereski to pm me about doing photos.
Once I learn the proper way I will post one or two.

tehachapifan

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Re: Kato dash 9 loksound install
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2018, 07:40:39 PM »
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That violet wire.....wish they would attach that differently so it doesn't hang over the side like that.

Steveruger45

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Re: Kato dash 9 loksound install
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2018, 07:59:29 PM »
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Woodone,
Fantastic. Thanks for the heads up.  I can’t recall now why I was not considering putting the speaker up front  :facepalm: I think it was to do with all the light tube/ditchlights and stuff up there that I was trying to avoid disturbing. I’ll make a start on it in the morning after a good nights sleep. Life just got in the way today. Your heads up is very timely.
Thanks again.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 09:48:40 PM by Steveruger45 »
Steve
Atascocita, Texas

tehachapifan

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Re: Kato dash 9 loksound install
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2018, 12:39:35 AM »
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So, I was just taking another look at one of my Kato C44-9W's and I sat a loco next to it that has a 73100 board installed in it and it really looks like it should fit with minimal or maybe even no frame modifications, but this is just by eyeballing it (see updates below). What were the issues or concerns again? It really looks like the frame contacts line up near perfectly and I can't spot what the issue is with vertical clearance with the underside of the board being essentially flat and component-free, except at the ends which I believe should (just barely....and I mean BARELY) hang beyond the area of the frame in question...but maybe not without a tiny bit of frame mods for a little added clearance. If one was to attach leads to the Aux 3, 4 and UB+ pads on the bottom of the board, a small area of the frame might need to be modified to accommodate this too but, otherwise, some Kapton tape between these pads and the frame would probably be necessary as might be the case between the bottom motor pads and the frame. On top of all this, it appears there would still be just enough room for a 9X16 speaker to sit between the rear of the board and the frame hump at the very rear. As far as clearance between the deoder and the top of the shell, can't say for sure but it appears the decoder sits really low in relation to the tallest protrusions on the frame, where the tallest components also just happen to sit. The components are pretty thin where the lower hood section is, so I'm guessing/hoping they might clear. Again, this is just a rough visual assessment by side-by-side comparison. Haven't attempted an actual fit or install yet. Your results may vary. ;)

....Quick update after looking at it a little further, I'm thinking only the front frame contacts will insert into the (forward) frame slots and the frame may need to be pressed together around the decoder, rather than the decoder being slid into an assembled frame, due to how the indentations are positioned in relation to the vertical frame protrusions. I also spotted a potential trouble spot inside the shell which might hit the decoder when it's pressed down and that's where the exhaust stack is attached. There's an extra bit of plastic on the underside of the roof there and I'm not sure it can be removed or reduced much without compromising the stack assembly and/or the relief detail where the stack sits. Going to do a rough field test with something about as thick as the components in that area placed on top of the stock light board to see if there's any interference with the shell....

.....Ok, yup, that area of extra plastic directly beneath the exhaust stack is an issue and apparently sits directly on top of the stock light board. When I placed a piece of styrene on the stock light board that was approximately the same thickness as the component(s) in that area on the 73100 board, the shell would not seat all the way down (by almost exactly the thickness of the styrene mockup). Again, I'm not sure yet if this extra plastic in the shell can be removed without comromising the stack integrity or detail. There's also a stepped-down area where the radiator is with a clip for the radiator grill detail which is also probably going to interfere. Not sure if this can be removed either. I'm guessing this has probaly come up with other decoder board installs on these units(?). At any rate, if it can't be removed, maybe the 73800 board is the way to go after all....although I imagine this stack area is going to call for some precise wire routing with that one too! :scared: ;)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 02:05:11 AM by tehachapifan »

woodone

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Re: Kato dash 9 loksound install
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2018, 09:42:41 AM »
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Russ, yes that retainer is right in the way! Here is what I do with that. First glue the retainer and stack to the shall.
No you won’t be able to remove it any more, but I don’t see that as a problem. After the glue has set (over night) I grind off the retainer leaving just the stack in place in the shell. Just make sure the glue has dried other wise the stack will come loose .





Steveruger45

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Re: Kato dash 9 loksound install
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2018, 10:24:43 AM »
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Great info guys.
Now I’ve had a good nights sleep I’m in the workshop working on this one now.
On those two bits that stick down into the shell that help hold the radiator piece. I just trimmed those back a bit just now, the rad still holds well but is easier to remove.. There is only 5.5mm between frame and shell at aft end, so these have to be trimmed if speaker is going in the back and even then that leaves room for only a shallow enclosure.   I’m going ahead now with a 73800 install.  My measurements, in the area of the exhaust stack was the issue I found too.  Also the height of the two dc board clips above the main frame area at the rear is 1.2mm and the board is 1.4mm thick in that area. If a little more clearance is needed for any wires to motor using the 73100 board then this is an area of concern.  I’m not saying it’s not doable but it’s going to be really really tight.   
Now, my plan is to install the 73800 in the aft area and put an 8x12 speaker ahead of the motor, as Per Woodones advice, and deepen down into the frame there a couple of mm’s to gain depth for enclosure. It should just be big enough and keep the fwd frame board slots. If a 16 x 9 speaker was to be installed in this location, the fwd frame slots would have to go.  So now where to connect up the left and right frame contacts?   
I have just drilled two holes in the rear of the frame halves after removing the two nubs here and tapped them for 00-90 screws.  I’m in the middle of making a pcb board for this that would also be a mount for rear light and resistor.  I’m doing this now and before I remove the fwd frame slots, just in case it doesn’t work or I screw it up I still can go back to using the fwd frame board slots for power pick up.

Update:  I ve been filing away at one frame half based on above mention plan with 12x8mm speaker ahead of the motor.
Here’s a shot of what it looks like.  Work in progress
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« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 12:24:36 PM by Steveruger45 »
Steve
Atascocita, Texas

woodone

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Re: Kato dash 9 loksound install
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2018, 01:43:30 PM »
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Steve,
You can remove more at the front. I remove almost all of the uprights and file down to the drive shaft tunnel. I make the enclosure stepped to fit the removed section of frame and mount a 9 X 16 speaker there. On the rear radiator snap off cover, you can remove the inter shell where the radiator covers it up. Then you have to rework the front snap on the radiator. The catch on the cover sticks down too far, so remove as much of it has you can. You can remove the catch completely if you dare and just glue a thin piece of styrene on the cover to hold the front edge of the radiator cover in place, Don't remove the two round holes in
the shell at the rear. These will hold the radiator cover in place.
I don't have any photos of the shell mods, but I do have a photo of an Gevo install showing the speaker location.
Let me find it and will post a bit latter.     

tehachapifan

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Re: Kato dash 9 loksound install
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2018, 01:58:44 PM »
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Looks good thus far! Looking forward to seeing your progress. I think I'm still going to try for the 73100 install when I get ahold of one again, as I really want to try to save the light tube and shield at the front (that light tube setup really works great on these units and should save me from routing 3 front LED's). Woodone, thanks for the info on dealing with the area around the stack and radiator! ;)




Steveruger45

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Re: Kato dash 9 loksound install
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2018, 03:34:42 PM »
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Thanks guys for all the input and support,
Am on a beer break
I now have both halves done and beginning to make a speaker enclosure.
Woodone, I want to try and leave the fwd board slots in place, at least at the moment, so I have that option for power pick up, if my other solution at the rear fails.  I’m sort of making this up as I go along, so I want to leave some options open.  However I can see what you mean and that would make for a nice sized speaker with a really good sized enclosure.  I also don’t want to mess with the light tube system, so I’m staying clear of that area altogether.
I took the rad off again and Putting a hole in the shell at that location would work too and gain at least 1.5 to 2.0 mm in height for a speaker back there. That is a good option if you can get the 73100 in.

I don’t have any 9x16 speakers left so I’m going with the 8x12 for now at least. I would still have the option later for the bigger speaker if wanted or needed with some more frame chopping up front as long as my rear pickup pcb board works.

Great ideas guys.  Beer now empty and back to work.

Update:
I just tried the shell on and
Speaker fits, just
Also the decoder fits too, immediately behind the rear board clips [ Guests cannot view attachments ]
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 04:59:26 PM by Steveruger45 »
Steve
Atascocita, Texas

woodone

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Re: Kato dash 9 loksound install
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2018, 07:38:15 PM »
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Not a Dash9 but I think you get the idea.