Author Topic: Is this ex-CN/VIA passenger car made in N?  (Read 1068 times)

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ryan_wilkerson

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Is this ex-CN/VIA passenger car made in N?
« on: April 10, 2018, 02:21:26 AM »
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My favorite railroad museum is the Western Pacific RR Museum in Portola, CA and they have an impressive collection of passenger and freight cars. One particular lounge car has been painted in the attractive silver and orange scheme and I'd like to have an N scale version. Any idea if there is an existing passenger car in N scale that would work for this?
I haven't been able to find the previous numbers but it's listed as a 1948 Pullman Lounge. Donate by Jack Hathaway:



http://wplives.org/collectionpageimages/passengercarimages/frrx754_for_sale_removed_1024x755.png

Followup...while searching, I found a second passenger car also donated by Jack Hathaway...any N scale possibilities for this?
"Built in 1954 by the Pullman Standard Company as a 4-8-4 Sleeper. Ex-Canadian National, ex VIA."



thomasjmdavis

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Re: Is this ex-CN/VIA passenger car made in N?
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2018, 09:39:48 AM »
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The second car is a CN "E series" sleeper.  Rapido did the car in their original series of passenger cars.  They are frequently on eBay and train shows and some hobby shops still have one or two on a back shelf somewhere.  They released them in several schemes.  Edenwold was also its CN name-
http://www.cnrphotos.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=55052

(courtesy of the late Jerry Laboda's Passenger Car Photo Index)

Tom D.

"The difference between the difficult and the impossible is that doing the impossible is usually more fun." (my college design professor Russell Whaley)

thomasjmdavis

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Re: Is this ex-CN/VIA passenger car made in N?
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2018, 09:54:06 AM »
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Also from the Passenger Car Photo Index-
The first car (FRRX 754) is originally VIA 754. Jerry attributed the history of the car this way (if you look it up under VIA rather than under the museum)
Quote
(ex-VIA, exx-CN, exxx-3006, nee-5543) CC&F LW cafe - lounge rblt. from coach - galley lounge, originally coach, @ Western Pacific RR Museum.

While it would be a later prototype, you might be able to do a credible model of the car by starting with the Rapido cafe-lounge.  That car, as modeled by Rapido, was rebuilt from a 1954 era coach.  As with the prototype, you would need to block out more windows- but you might want to contact the museum for photos of what the other side looks like.  Often, when a lounge has blocked windows, it is because they installed a bar or food service counter, and the other side will have windows.
Tom D.

"The difference between the difficult and the impossible is that doing the impossible is usually more fun." (my college design professor Russell Whaley)

trainforfun

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Re: Is this ex-CN/VIA passenger car made in N?
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2018, 02:01:32 PM »
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Any picture of the other side of the first car ?
 I suspect there would be more Windows on the other side , no ?
Thanks ,
Louis



ryan_wilkerson

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Re: Is this ex-CN/VIA passenger car made in N?
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2018, 02:44:54 PM »
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Thanks Tom! I did a search and found the Edenwold by Rapido! Quite the investment but I'll keep my eye out.

The second car is a CN "E series" sleeper.  Rapido did the car in their original series of passenger cars.  They are frequently on eBay and train shows and some hobby shops still have one or two on a back shelf somewhere.  They released them in several schemes.  Edenwold was also its CN name-
http://www.cnrphotos.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=55052

(courtesy of the late Jerry Laboda's Passenger Car Photo Index)

thomasjmdavis

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Re: Is this ex-CN/VIA passenger car made in N?
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2018, 03:50:58 PM »
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Thanks Tom! I did a search and found the Edenwold by Rapido! Quite the investment but I'll keep my eye out.
You're welcome. Rapido pricing was fairly steep to begin with, and the auctioneers are trying to flog them as "rare" and "vintage" on top of that. Are you looking for VIA or an earlier paint scheme?
Tom D.

"The difference between the difficult and the impossible is that doing the impossible is usually more fun." (my college design professor Russell Whaley)

craigolio1

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Re: Is this ex-CN/VIA passenger car made in N?
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2018, 04:59:46 PM »
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While I can't  comment on availability, Athabasca brass may have done car sides for this car. They did MANY CN and VIA cars.

Craig

http://www.athabascashops.com/n-pass.htm

thomasjmdavis

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Re: Is this ex-CN/VIA passenger car made in N?
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2018, 06:50:15 PM »
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Good point, Craig.
If the FRRX 754 is the same as the VIA 754 and that is the same as CN 754, then the OP may be in luck.  Athabasca does make a side for CN cafe lounge series 750-765.  Might need some additional work to get it to look like it does today, but would be a good starting point. And they list the E sleeper also. Assuming they still have some in stock.  You can purchase as either complete kits (at least they are still listing complete kits) including core.  If you just buy the sides, they also have an etched fret of detail parts that isn't listed- included in the complete kit, but was also available separately last time I ordered a couple years ago.

I have 5 sets of sides from them I need to get to work on. 
Tom D.

"The difference between the difficult and the impossible is that doing the impossible is usually more fun." (my college design professor Russell Whaley)

ryan_wilkerson

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Re: Is this ex-CN/VIA passenger car made in N?
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2018, 02:23:38 AM »
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I'm looking to do both of these cars in the current condition, as-pictured. So the Edenwold in stock Rapido VIA paint is what I'm looking for. I'd say my max is $40 so I'll be on the lookout.

You're welcome. Rapido pricing was fairly steep to begin with, and the auctioneers are trying to flog them as "rare" and "vintage" on top of that. Are you looking for VIA or an earlier paint scheme?

ryan_wilkerson

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Re: Is this ex-CN/VIA passenger car made in N?
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2018, 02:25:28 AM »
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Louis,
I haven't found a photo of the other side. I'll be visiting the museum and actually sleeping in the Edenwold for the weekend (my sons' Boy Scout troop is doing the Railroad Merit Badge at the museum) so I should be able to get any photos I need.
-Ryan
Any picture of the other side of the first car ?
 I suspect there would be more Windows on the other side , no ?

ryan_wilkerson

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Re: Is this ex-CN/VIA passenger car made in N?
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2018, 02:27:51 AM »
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Craig,
Is the Athabasca kit more accurate than the Rapido Cafe-Bar-Lounge? Thanks for pointing out that option!
-Ryan
While I can't  comment on availability, Athabasca brass may have done car sides for this car. They did MANY CN and VIA cars.

Craig

http://www.athabascashops.com/n-pass.htm

ryan_wilkerson

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Re: Is this ex-CN/VIA passenger car made in N?
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2018, 02:30:33 AM »
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Tom,
Same question to you about the best starting point. Kit or Rapido? It looks like the price may be about the same. I'd give up some accuracy to have a solid pre-built car.
-Ryan
Good point, Craig.
If the FRRX 754 is the same as the VIA 754 and that is the same as CN 754, then the OP may be in luck.  Athabasca does make a side for CN cafe lounge series 750-765.  Might need some additional work to get it to look like it does today, but would be a good starting point. And they list the E sleeper also. Assuming they still have some in stock.  You can purchase as either complete kits (at least they are still listing complete kits) including core.  If you just buy the sides, they also have an etched fret of detail parts that isn't listed- included in the complete kit, but was also available separately last time I ordered a couple years ago.

I have 5 sets of sides from them I need to get to work on.

thomasjmdavis

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Re: Is this ex-CN/VIA passenger car made in N?
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2018, 12:36:45 PM »
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2 things before I say anything else....


Before getting too far in the planning, I would recommend emailing Athabasca, to be sure the sides you want are available, if you want to consider that option.

Things here are a bit confusing, since I came across a couple photos where the cafe-lounge car 754 was misidentified as "Edenwold". So we need to be clear about which car we are talking about.

On the Rapido- kitbash- sides question... This is really a question you need to decide for yourself, and has to do with how much fun you have in different aspects of the hobby, and what your final objective is.  For example, are you modeling them as part of a RR museum diorama module on your layout, or are you modeling them to run in trains? 

Car FRRX 754.  Athabasca side 5716 is for cars 750-765 as they appeared in VIA service between 1978 and 1992.  I would speculate that is as close as you are going to get, in terms of accurate placement of windows, etc.  There may have been modifications made to that particular car after 1992 that you would need to model to make it look like it does today (or it may look as it did in 1992 as is), but it would be the best starting point. You will need to paint.  And you will need to check with Athabasca on availability, and secure a core kit or an old car for that purpose.

 Note that the Rapido cafe-lounge is a different number series- so the Athabasca sides will be closer.  As near as I can tell, Athabasca has modeled virtually every CN passenger carrying streamlined car, and at least some of the streamline head end cars- so their sides are the "go to" for accuracy, in the same way that M&R sides are for an ATSF modeler.  And Athabasca has gone to the extra effort of producing variations so you can get the original coach, the modified cafe lounge car from the 1960s, or the car in VIA service- and since they have different inventory numbers, I am assuming there are some detail differences, even between the last 2.

That said, you have several choices on how to proceed (I have used all of them while attempting to model 1950s passenger trains).

1. Buy Rapido cars- a sleeper and a cafe lounge, and use both as is (the sleeper appears to be good out of the box- perhaps you will find a few details to add, and the cafe-lounge as a stand in). This is the easiest route, if you decide that "solid, prebuilt car" is the way you want to go.  If my layout was up and running, I would be running plenty of stand in cars- I have done this with a lot of heavyweights for my GTW trains, for instance. Choose the closest car available (MT has made this easy by painting cars in CN colors), and use as is, or perhaps do some detailing.

2. Rapido sleeper and a kitbashed cafe-lounge- although then you will need to repaint and there is some question as to how close you could get.  I have done the equivalent here with Kato cars from which I am trying to model the Wabash Blue Bird.  A couple dome cars fit the bill with minor modifications, and other cars in the consist I am doing as modified Kato Budd cars to get "sort of close" by doing some slicing and dicing of doors and windows and such. Not absolutely accurate models, but an attempt to convey the "look" of the prototype.

3. Rapido sleeper and #754 built from Athabasca sides. (PS- Rapido trucks are available separately and are very nice). A way to combine "best of both worlds" can be to find a Kato or Rapido car that has a damaged exterior, and just replace the sides of the car- in that way, you get the structure of a RTR car (plus interior, roof detail, etc) but the custom window arrangement. You may need to adjust for a couple scale feet of length, depending on car you choose as a "core." I am currently in the process of completing M&R projects I have been working on for years to produce ATSF sleepers and coaches to augment those available from Kato.  I should note, it isn't that it takes years to build one, but that I work on them for a couple days, and then put them away for 6 months or more.  They all went into a box over 2 years ago, then we moved, and I am just now getting back to that part of my modeling.

4.  Build both from Athabasca sides.  This way, you get accurate models, and both are built the same way (that is, windows are same distance from surface, both have decals vs ink print, etc- so the "look" is the same).  But time, trouble, paint, etc. required. 

So, it comes down, basically, to weighing degree of accuracy against convenience and running qualities of a "solid pre-built car" and in my own modeling the answer has been "that depends."  The way I answer it is usually based on how important the particular car or train is.  Those fishbelly baggage cars are unique to ATSF and I enjoy building cars from sides.  So, if VIA 754 were important to me- that is, I really wanted THAT car in my train, I would opt for #3 above (because I think the Rapido car is better than any I could build, so would use it rather than sides for the E car).  On the other hand, the "Dixieland" is in the mix as a form of "moving scenery"- and I had it together before USP sides became available for many of the cars.  Someday, I may upgrade it, but have made a commitment to myself to get my current boxes of projects finished, and get a layout operational, before taking on too many more new projects. (Of course, as soon as I made that commitment, Keystone and KV came up with their Stillwell cars, so OK, old projects and Stillwell cars, and well, maybe a few of those Pullman sleeper sides that Scott is working on for KV and ....)

Tom D.

"The difference between the difficult and the impossible is that doing the impossible is usually more fun." (my college design professor Russell Whaley)

craigolio1

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Re: Is this ex-CN/VIA passenger car made in N?
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2018, 11:09:12 AM »
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I have built a couple of the Athabasca kits. They used to come with American Limited core kits which were generic kits. They had smooth roofs, misc under body details and meh trucks that you had to assemble.

They also came with the etched sides, etched detail fret, and a piece of clear styrene for the windows.

The finished products look good but have no where near the level of detail
That any Rapido car has. Plus you should still buy Rapido trucks to get the correct trucks, and some couplers.

If I were doing a kit now I would buy just the Athabasca sides, and then a Rapido car that has underbody equipment that is, or looks similar, and the correct side vestibule door (or lack thereof).

I did this for some cars using Laser Horizons sides. I disassembled the Rapido car, cut a snug fitting block of wood to fit inside the body for support, glued a sheet of sandpaper to a piece of plywood, and sanded down the sides until the new over lays fit properly.

Then mark the windows, and cut them out of the Rapido body. Glue the sides on and your car is done. This takes hours less time and gives all of the detail that you want. If you build the Athabasca kit and put it in a train next to a stock Rapido E sleeper, you will really see the difference.

Craig

thomasjmdavis

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Re: Is this ex-CN/VIA passenger car made in N?
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2018, 02:08:50 PM »
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I agree completely Craig- the best "core" would be a Rapido car.  I lucked out a few years ago, and picked up some Rapido underframes with interiors and trucks (I have no idea what the fellow who sold them to me did with the bodies other than to assume a major kitbash project).  Saving those to use with some Athabasca sides to model GTW coaches (similar to CN, but 2 vestibules). 

The ONLY "complaint" I have with Rapido is that they did not produce enough 1950s era body styles (which is to say, not the ones I wanted most)- especially those GTW coaches and the 6-4-6 Green series sleepers.  But they are very well made, and a good value when you figure in that they came with lighting and all the underbody detail.  Maybe we will see more when they get over their romance with NH.
Tom D.

"The difference between the difficult and the impossible is that doing the impossible is usually more fun." (my college design professor Russell Whaley)