International Passenger Train Consists (CNR/B&M/NH/CVR/PRR/CPR/D&H/RUT/NYC/...)

[CNR5529]

I have always been fascinated by the various passenger trains that ran between Canadian and US cities, often in pool arrangement. For example, the Ambassador in the 1950's was a colorful train typically made up of a CNR mail car, B&M baggage, CVR, CNR, NH and/or B&M coaches, and a CNR café. Power was usually a CNR Pacific or CVR Mountain type locomotive. This train connected Montreal with Boston and New York, via White River Vt.

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With an ultimate end goal of modeling more of these unique consists in N, does anyone have specific consist information for some of the following trains? (preferably in the 50's, but specify if from different era) I have looked through timetables and found some bits of info, however typically this doesn't provide details such as what railroad was providing the specific cars, what head end cars were being used, or what locomotives were assigned along the route.

Washingtonian/Montrealer (CNR/CVR/B&M/NH/PRR)
Allouette (CPR/B&M)
Red Wing (CPR/B&M)
Green Mountain Flyer (Rut)
Mount Royal (Rut)
Laurentian (D&H)
Montreal Ltd (D&H)
TH&B/CPR/NYC Pool Trains
Lasalle (CNR/GTW/CPR/LV/??)
International Limited (CNR/GTW/CPR/LV/??)
Maple Leaf (CNR/GTW/CPR/LV/??)
Inter City Limited (CNR/GTW/CPR/LV/??)
...

There were similar trains in the mid-west and west coast as well, so by all means lets not forget about those. As a side note, feel free to share pictures of your renditions of these interesting cross-border trains!

[sd45elect2000]

SOO line had some trains as well. The Winnepeg train and the SOO dominion.

[CNR5529]

SOO line had some trains as well. The Winnepeg train and the SOO dominion.

Fixed it to include mid-west and west coast trains. Feel free to post consist info about those as well!

[Brian M]

Great topic of conversation, which can almost be a whole sub-area of research when one starts to look into the full picture of passenger train operations of certain railroads.  There have been plenty of times when I've wondered what it would take to model a representative consist for some of the NYC trains that interchanged with the D&H and Rutland, and that in trying to answer that question, I've come across timetables showing multiple trains that ran between New York City and Canadian destinations, not just the obvious answer of the Laurentian.  There was The Niagara, The Montreal Limited, various un-named trains, and some other names that I think I'm forgetting at the moment.  I'm pretty sure I have some of this information printed out at home.

Terry Link's Canadian Southern website has a lot of this kind of information.  Here's a link to his page of passenger train consists between Buffalo and Toronto from 1933 to 1969:http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/passenger-consists-th&b.htm, which lists all of the various cars in the trains for particular days.  Some of the train consists also show what engine was leading.

I would really like to include passenger cars from the D&H and Rutland in my modeling of some of these trains that traveled into Grand Central, but the main issue for N scale is lack of decals or lettering for D&H and Rutland equipment.  So achieving the right look for these trains has fallen into a "one of these days" category for me....

-Brian.

[thomasjmdavis]

I can make a couple contributions here on GTW/CN trains.
equipment page from 1956 time table (the jpg was published some years ago on the web, but I lost the reference):



If you examine the equipment lists, it makes apparent that the trains were substantially different between Montreal and Toronto than they were between Toronto and Chicago.  They also worked hard to be efficient with food service cars- with diners being cut in and out to cover meal times on various trains.  The sleepers were all CN (usually, see consist below)- even those that ran regularly between Detroit and Chicago and coaches were a mix of CN and GTW.  Rules and tariffs regarding use of Canadian equipment in the US and US equipment in Canada impacted the operations and that is why you see the odd way the consists of some trains turn around in Chicago- to minimize the time spent in the US so the Canadian equipment gets back across the border in less than 24 hours.

The following rather interesting consist was published on the passconsist yahoo group:

In case you have not seen it, this consist appears in Arthur D. Dubin's Some
Classic Trains (p. 342):

Grand Trunk Western Chicago-Toronto No. 14 International Limited (Dec. 4, 1962):

GTW 4910, 4931, 4136 Locomotives
GTW 8858 Baggage [Flint mail & express]
CN 8254 Baggage [storage]
GTW 8811 Baggage [Lansing mail & express]
GTW 8474 Baggage [express]
GTW 9081 Baggage [Port Huron express]
GTW 9683 RPO [Port Huron]
CN 9004 Baggage
CN 5494 Coach
CN 5601 Coach
NYC&StL City of Findlay 10-6 [extra]
E-L Eleazer Lord 10-6 [extra]
C&NW American Sunset 6-6-4 [extra]
SR Glacier 12-1 [extra]
CN Cape Chignecto 2-2-L
CN Green Hill 6-4-4
CN Greening 6-4-6
CN Green Court 6-4-6 [Port Huron]
CN Green Brook 6-4-6 [Detroit]
CN 4888 Coach [Detroit]

- This is as shown in the book, except I've removed the notation "Toronto" from
the Toronto cars, rather than repeat it;
- Eleazer Lord should be Eleazar Lord;
- Green Hill should be "6-4-6";
- Cape Chignecto also featured a Buffet.

The entry closes with this sentence: 'Four extra sleeping cars from the Pullman
pool were added when Trans-Canada Airlines was grounded".

Rare to see a 12-1 out of Dearborn station, Chicago in 1962.

[Paradise275]

Fredrick, don't forget the Pool trains that ran locally in Canada using both CNR and CP equipment. They were used as both railways weaned themselves away from passenger and concentrated more on freight.
They ran a mismash of equipment including ancient heavyweights right into the 70's.
I remember going to the Grey Cup in Toronto and riding in a coach with red corduroy seats and overhead open baggage racks.

Rick

[CNR5529]

don't forget the Pool trains that ran locally in Canada using both CNR and CP equipment.

Dont worry, I didnt forget! Not all pool trains between Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto were named, but the bigger ones sure were. The International, Intercity Ltd and Lasalle ran between Montreal and Toronto before heading on to Detroit or Chicago. As @thomasjmdavis pointed out (awesome info btw), the trains were quite different on the various legs of their journeys, with different cars getting cut in or out as needed. I have been working on a spreadsheet to show what cars ended up where as the trains went on. In Montreal, some trains departed from Windsor station (CPR) but returned to Central station (CNR), and vice versa. If you have some consist info, please share!

@Brian M I believe Highball Graphics make decals for the Rutland and D&H passenger cars. https://highballgraphics.com/PN-101.htm

[PGE_Modeller]

Not a pool train, per se but, here on the West Coast, the name "International" evokes images of Great Northern's Seattle - Vancouver trains, both morning and evening versions, with E-7s and an all-streamline consist!

Cheers,

[jmlaboda - RIP]

Rare to see a 12-1 out of Dearborn station, Chicago in 1962.

Not really.

One thing you have to remember is that service men and women were limited to Sections for sleeping car accommodations and I would bet that this is why the 12-1 is in the consist.  Not the worse way to travel but it was the reason old heavyweights remained in service, at least in the United States, where no Sections in lightweight cars were available.  Southern was the last road in the U.S. to regularly use a heavyweight sleeper in its operations, using a 6 Section - 6 Double Bedroom sleeper until 1966 between Alabama and Georgia, because of the number of military passengers (think it was in conjunction with a Frisco train but can't remember the details right now).

Those roads that bought lightweight cars with Sections dropped the heavyweight cars rather quickly... those roads include Atlantic Coast Line/Seaboard Air Line/Seaboard Coast Line, Burlington, Chicago & Eastern Illinois (ACL), Chicago & Northwestern (UP), Florida East Coast (ACL), Great Northern, Gulf Mobile & Ohio, Louisville & Nashville (ACL), Rio Grande (CB&Q), Santa Fe, Southern Pacific, Spokane Portland & Seattle (GN), Union Pacific and Western Pacific (CB&Q).  Hope I didn't miss any.  Some roads rebuilt their Section sleepers to other car types (typically into coaches) while others used Sections as dorm space for train crews in the mid-to-late 60s.

As for passenger train consists the single best place to find them is the Passenger Train Consist at Yahoo!!!  The Group has been around for a while and recently has received a huge number of new consists.  I have been a member for quite a few years now and can't think of any better place to search for pass consists... searching emails and the Files sections of the List will yield nearly everyone consists that they can take to the bank.  Here's the url for the List:

https://groups.yahoo.com/group/passconsist/info

[Brian M]

@Brian M I believe Highball Graphics make decals for the Rutland and D&H passenger cars. https://highballgraphics.com/PN-101.htm

Cool, thanks for the heads-up on those.

-Brian.

[thomasjmdavis]

Not really.

One thing you have to remember is that service men and women were limited to Sections for sleeping car accommodations and I would bet that this is why the 12-1 is in the consist.  Not the worse way to travel but it was the reason old heavyweights remained in service, at least in the United States, where no Sections in lightweight cars were available.  Southern was the last road in the U.S. to regularly use a heavyweight sleeper in its operations, using a 6 Section - 6 Double Bedroom sleeper until 1966 between Alabama and Georgia, because of the number of military passengers (think it was in conjunction with a Frisco train but can't remember the details right now).

Those roads that bought lightweight cars with Sections dropped the heavyweight cars rather quickly... those roads include Atlantic Coast Line/Seaboard Air Line/Seaboard Coast Line, Burlington, Chicago & Eastern Illinois (ACL), Chicago & Northwestern (UP), Florida East Coast (ACL), Great Northern, Gulf Mobile & Ohio, Louisville & Nashville (ACL), Rio Grande (CB&Q), Santa Fe, Southern Pacific, Spokane Portland & Seattle (GN), Union Pacific and Western Pacific (CB&Q).  Hope I didn't miss any.  Some roads rebuilt their Section sleepers to other car types (typically into coaches) while others used Sections as dorm space for train crews in the mid-to-late 60s.

As for passenger train consists the single best place to find them is the Passenger Train Consist at Yahoo!!!  The Group has been around for a while and recently has received a huge number of new consists.  I have been a member for quite a few years now and can't think of any better place to search for pass consists... searching emails and the Files sections of the List will yield nearly everyone consists that they can take to the bank.  Here's the url for the List:

https://groups.yahoo.com/group/passconsist/info

Hi Jerry,

You are quite probably correct as to why there would be a 12-1 in consist- it doesn't say where it was going- so perhaps it was cut off at Durand for Detroit (unlikely that a large number of US military would be going to Toronto). But there must have been a large number of government/military on the cancelled planes- there were a total of 30 sections (accommodation for 60 if you count the uppers) in that train in addition to the 12-1, ( five 6-6-4 and 6-4-6 sleepers).  My remark was not that it was unreasonable, just that it was unusual by that point in time.  All the Dearborn tenants, other than C&WI and Monon, had lightweight cars with section space  (Wabash had only one, I think, but had access to UP pool). 

The usual consist of all the CN/GTW trains included "Green" 6 sec-4Dbr-6rmt lightweight sleepers (very similar to the L&N/CEI Pine sleepers give or take a small window). 3 of those cars ran between Chicago and Michigan locales every day (and were always kept in the US, although lettered for CN rather than GTW)- eastbound on the Inter-City and westbound on the LaSalle.  One of the reasons those were used on the US lines was specifically for military/government passengers.

A couple other additions to your list. Erie also had several from the large number of 6-6-4 sleepers built for the Pullman pool at the beginning of WWII.  Since there were so many (ATSF had a bunch) they were still prominent as "pool" cars in the Chicago area. Wabash also nominally had at least one of the "National" series as part of its commitment to the "City" trains with UP.  And at least in some years, a 6-6-4 or 6-4-6 ran between St. Louis and Chicago on the Midnight.

[SandyEggoJake]

Don't be so Oh Canada-centric, eh!   

For those seeking details on the very best, most colorful international passenger train consists - from down ol' Mexico way - we had some great ones on the SD&A (connecting it's wholly owned Tijuana & Tecate), which then connected with the Espee and back South o' the boarder a second time via the Inter-Cal before connecting in Araz Junction, CA on way to Yuma, AZ and parts east.

Scheduled trains, specials, mixtos, circus trains ... even Presidential runs.  While work on this subject is ongoing, a number of consists are well detailed in John Fiscella's extensive "San Diego & Arizona Railway Man Line Route Passenger Service; the Agony and the Odyssey", including FDR's POTUS Special (July, 18, 1944) that included the massive "Ferdinand Magellan", now restored and on display in Miami.

http://www.gcrm.org/ferdinand-magellan

[dougnelson]

The latest issue of The Keystone (Vol. 50, No. 4; Winter 2017) has a major article on the The Montrealer and The Washingtonian. Specifically the article has a good number of consists from the 1930s through the 1960s. The article was originally published in The Ambassador, the publication of the Central Vermont Railway Historical Society.

[bbussey]

This is my 1956 Montrealer/Washingtonian consist:

NH 5574 - turtleroof baggage (scratchbuilt)
NH 3263 - heavyweight RPO (repurposed PRB ATSF RPO)
NH 8261 - Pullman Bradley Light Weight (Rapido)
NH 8208 - Pullman Bradley Light Weight (Rapido)
NH 8515 - Pullman Bradley Light Weight Smoker (kitbashed Rapido)
PRR 4400 - heavyweight diner (MTL)
NH 553 Pine Tree State - Pullman 6B-BL fluted sleeper (ESM kit)
NH 749 Orchard Gardens - heavyweight 8-5 sleeper (kitbashed)
PRR 8449 Silver Rapids - Budd 10-6 fluted sleeper (kitbashed Kato)
B&M 34 Salisbury Beach - Pullman 6-4-6 fluted sleeper (kitbashed ESM/Walthers)
CN 2024 Chaleur Bay - 10-5 sleeper lightweight (Rapido)

[nickelplate759]

CPR + B&M Alouette (Montreal - Boston)
 
an E-unit (a CPR E8 or B&M E7) after about 1949 or a CPR or B&M 4-6-2 if you want to model earlier (at least through the late 1930s).
a CPR Baggage car  (often wood sided) or express car.
a CPR baggage-smoker (heavyweight)
a B&M coach (heavyweight, or Osgood Bradley)
a CPR buffet-parlor-observation (heavyweight)

More coaches or express as needed.  If there was a second coach it appears to usually be a CPR coach.

There's a nice picture of the Alouette with just three cars behind a B&M 4-6-2 in 1939 here:
http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/us/bm_cpr_pool.htm

and one from 1938 with an express car here:
https://flic.kr/p/kxYQXc


in 1956 it was changed to an unnamed train consisting of a pair of CPR RDC-2s