Author Topic: Need help modeling this EL mail train  (Read 2952 times)

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jargonlet

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Need help modeling this EL mail train
« on: January 05, 2018, 04:04:59 PM »
+1
I recently happened onto this picture surfing the net. The picture does a pretty good job of identifying a lot of the components of this train but leaves some questions left unanswered. [ Guests cannot view attachments ] Furthermore it leaves gaps in what cars to use in n scale.

Here is the consist list. I have listed what I think would be a good starting point for this train:

E8a/E8a (Kato E8)
Container flat probably REA (N Scale Kits 80' Santa Fe container flat)
Converted troop kitchen baggage car (Skytop Models Burlington converted troop kitchen)
Arch roof EL baggage car (Wheels of Time Harriman Baggage)
Piggy back flatcar with one REA trailer (N Scale Kits PRR F39)
Piggy back flatcar with two REA trailers (N Scale Kits PRR F39)
Erie Baggage car (MTL Erie Baggage)
EL baggage car (Wheels of Time Harriman Baggage) might be a ex Erie 70' car
Deadhead coach (not sure on this one, maybe a repainted MTL Coach or Bachmann P70 foob)
Express boxcar (MTL Erie Lackawanna Express boxcar)
Heavyweight coach (Erie Stillwell Coach)

That is my potential n scale consist. I really don't know much about intermodal in the mid 60's. For the container flat, I considered the Santa Fe kit or a flexivan. After looking at pictures of the flexi, it appears that car in this consist has four containers on it. I would rather use a Flexi-van but these only carried two containers. Maybe I am looking at two containers and just don't know what I'm looking at. As for the tofc, it seems to me that the pair of trailers are a bit shorter than the single. Could this mean that the trailers flats are 75' thus the single trailer would be 40'? The trailer closest the photographer is a REA. I could probably use the REA reefer set to decal it.

http://mrr.trains.com/how-to/prototype-railroads/2014/03/mail-and-express-train-operations
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 05:08:23 PM by jargonlet »

jmlaboda

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Re: Need help modeling this EL mail train
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2018, 06:00:20 PM »
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Quote
Maybe I am looking at two containers and just don't know what I'm looking at.

You are looking at two flat cars, not one.  Compare the length of either baggage (fore or aft) and you can see how huge that "flat car" would have to be to be a single car.

mu26aeh

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Re: Need help modeling this EL mail train
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2018, 06:37:42 PM »
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@R L Smith , do you have any thoughts on this ?

jargonlet

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Re: Need help modeling this EL mail train
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2018, 07:03:03 PM »
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You are looking at two flat cars, not one.  Compare the length of either baggage (fore or aft) and you can see how huge that "flat car" would have to be to be a single car.

I don't know a much about 1960s intermodal. I don't truly know what was out there but weren't the Santa Fe mail flats 80' long? There is an nscalekits.com for it which is how I knew of it. That was my only thought as to what car or cars it is.

Jbub

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Re: Need help modeling this EL mail train
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2018, 07:16:00 PM »
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I'm assuming you mean the car directly behind the locos. I know it's not this but don't trash cars have 4 spots for 20 foot trash containers?
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jargonlet

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Re: Need help modeling this EL mail train
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2018, 08:19:09 PM »
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I'm assuming you mean the car directly behind the locos. I know it's not this but don't trash cars have 4 spots for 20 foot trash containers?

I know the models that atlas makes have space for 4 trash containers. I assume these are mail containers or containers that are similar to what modern well cars carry.

thomasjmdavis

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Re: Need help modeling this EL mail train
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2018, 08:40:44 PM »
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I don't know a much about 1960s intermodal. I don't truly know what was out there but weren't the Santa Fe mail flats 80' long? There is an nscalekits.com for it which is how I knew of it. That was my only thought as to what car or cars it is.
The original ATSF mail flats were made using the underframes of unneeded diners and lounge cars- definitely 80'+, in 1962 and 63.  The second series of mail container flats were rebuilt from Ft-18 flatcars (known on other lines as GATX "auto-veyor" cars), which I think are nominally 85', in 1967.  Both cars carried 4 mail containers, each 8x8x20'.
Tom D.

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Sokramiketes

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Re: Need help modeling this EL mail train
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2018, 09:53:38 PM »
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You are looking at two flat cars, not one.  Compare the length of either baggage (fore or aft) and you can see how huge that "flat car" would have to be to be a single car.

His question is regarding the first car, not the two TOFC flats further back.

The first car is an REAX Unit Tainer car. 4 boxes on one flat. While not made in N, the ATSF flat kinda has the feel. On the REAX cars the containers were strangely elevated off the deck, with large clamps swung into place to hold them in place. I’m not finding a quick image on google, later on I can dig through my 8x10s as I have a good shot or two.
Mike

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jargonlet

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Re: Need help modeling this EL mail train
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2018, 10:08:03 PM »
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His question is regarding the first car, not the two TOFC flats further back.

The first car is an REAX Unit Tainer car. 4 boxes on one flat. While not made in N, the ATSF flat kinda has the feel. On the REAX cars the containers were strangely elevated off the deck, with large clamps swung into place to hold them in place. I’m not finding a quick image on google, later on I can dig through my 8x10s as I have a good shot or two.

If you wouldn’t mind, I would like to see the photo. I am also seeking information on the two flats with the trailers on them. I mainly model steam in the 1940s. It would be nice to know what flats they probably were and also which trailers would be a good match.

nscalbitz

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Re: Need help modeling this EL mail train
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2018, 10:23:29 PM »
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I know the models that atlas makes have space for 4 trash containers. I assume these are mail containers or containers that are similar to what modern well cars carry.

There was no such thing as 'mail containers'. Any period. Period.
Internal Mail doesn't go in containers. Period.
Best practice is to know when the photo is dated; then check the road in question, then check their mail contracts.
Who says the markings on the photo are accurate, or someones guess?

Equating a prototype photo with some models made for a period 40 years later is asking for trouble.
Check with Jim Eager on groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MFCL/info as most knowledgeable on steam transition and later flat car evolutions for 'container' type traffic. Many roads used converted / redundant underframes for their first efforts at home grown rolling stock.
Regards dave

wcfn100

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Re: Need help modeling this EL mail train
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2018, 10:32:37 PM »
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The first car is an REAX Unit Tainer car. 4 boxes on one flat. While not made in N, the ATSF flat kinda has the feel. On the REAX cars the containers were strangely elevated off the deck, with large clamps swung into place to hold them in place. I’m not finding a quick image on google, later on I can dig through my 8x10s as I have a good shot or two.

Those would be nice to see if you can locate them.

I don't have a record of any REAX reporting mark or REA owning any flat cars.  REA did have 20' containers that were assigned to EL marked RELZ.  From the photo, it looks like the containers could be riding on a G-85 flat car because of the space under the containers and the thin side sill of the car.

I've seen a picture of REA trailers on a NIFX flat car, and NIFX did have G-85 flats, and some of those flats did have steam lines.

Don't know if that all adds up to anything, just putting it out there...

Jason

Point353

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Re: Need help modeling this EL mail train
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2018, 10:51:14 PM »
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The first car is an REAX Unit Tainer car. 4 boxes on one flat. While not made in N, the ATSF flat kinda has the feel. On the REAX cars the containers were strangely elevated off the deck, with large clamps swung into place to hold them in place.


wcfn100

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Re: Need help modeling this EL mail train
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2018, 11:04:42 PM »
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Okay, so I did find something.  In 1965 REA had the following cars:

REX 3100-3109 (6 total cars) that were 85' flats, class BFL (containers).
REX 3401-3440 (23 total cars) listed same as above.

These don't show up in the 1966 ORER.

Jason

thomasjmdavis

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Re: Need help modeling this EL mail train
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2018, 11:11:34 PM »
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There was no such thing as 'mail containers'. Any period. Period.
Internal Mail doesn't go in containers. Period.
Best practice is to know when the photo is dated; then check the road in question, then check their mail contracts.
Who says the markings on the photo are accurate, or someones guess?

Equating a prototype photo with some models made for a period 40 years later is asking for trouble.
Check with Jim Eager on groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MFCL/info as most knowledgeable on steam transition and later flat car evolutions for 'container' type traffic. Many roads used converted / redundant underframes for their first efforts at home grown rolling stock.
Regards dave
Well, the Santa Fe had flatcars that carried containers that carried mail between 1962 and the end of passenger service (and may have carried on for a short while after?).  Said containers were specifically designed by ATSF and the Post Office for that service. Sorted mail was loaded in Chicago and Kansas City for shipment to west coast points, and from LA and San Francisco to Chicago and KC. The cars with their containers moved in first class trains, particularly the Grand Canyon and San Francisco Chief. The cars and containers are detailed in Chapter 3 of the Head End Cars book by Ellington and Shine.  Drawings of the cars and containers were also in either MR or RMC (or MM?) a couple decades ago, but I will let someone else look it up.
Tom D.

"The difference between the difficult and the impossible is that doing the impossible is usually more fun." (my college design professor Russell Whaley)

prbharris

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Re: Need help modeling this EL mail train
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2018, 02:43:50 AM »
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Great project - I do enjoy the early intermodal period - as can be seen from our catalog.

The original ATSF mail flats were made using the underframes of unneeded diners and lounge cars- definitely 80'+, in 1962 and 63.....carried 4 mail containers, each 8x8x20'.

containers were specifically designed by ATSF and the Post Office for that service. Sorted mail was loaded in Chicago and Kansas City for shipment to west coast points, and from LA and San Francisco to Chicago and KC. The cars with their containers moved in first class trains, particularly the Grand Canyon and San Francisco Chief.

and were the prototypes for the cars that www.nscalekits.com do. The cars have a wood deck between the cross sills - but could have cross bunks added to make up a similar car

From the photo, it looks like the containers could be riding on a G-85 flat car because of the space under the containers and the thin side sill of the car. Jason

I agree, that the car does look very much like the G-85 car. The containers ride higher on the Clejan spine. This is a car that we do not make...at the moment. There are no similar cars made in N Scale as far as I am aware.

If anyone wants to get in touch about what parts we can supply - for example container bunks that could be added to a flat car to construct the consist under discussion, please PM me direct.

Peter

Peter Harris
N Scale Kits
www.nscalekits.com