Grand Trunk Western renumber and repaint of early GP-9s

[thomasjmdavis]

Hello all,
Are there any GTW experts out there with specialization in early diesels?
I am painting and decaling a pair of Atlas GP-9TT locos to represent the first 2 passenger geeps on the GTW.  These were originally numbered 1766 and 1767.  They shared the same green/dulux gold (yellow) paint scheme as the early freight geeps and were lettered "Grand Trunk Western" along the sill. 

Between Patrick Dorin's book, others in my library and the internet, I can find photos of the units when new, and in the seventies painted blue, but nothing in between.

In Spring 1956, they were renumbered 4900 and 4901.  My planned layout will be set in the summer of 1956, shortly after that renumbering.

In 1957, GTW acquire additional passenger geeps.  The paint scheme used was similar, but had a solid dulux gold sill, and "Grand Trunk Western" lettered on the long hood of the GP-9TTs.

Question: Which paint scheme should I put on 4900 and 4901 to be accurate for the year or so following the renumbering?  Or, put another way, when renumbered, were the (now) 4900 and 4901 also repainted into the same scheme used on the 1957 purchases- with the lettering on the long hood rather than the sill?  Or repainted in 1957 or a later date?  Or did they keep the original paint scheme until they were painted in 1960s or 70s when they were painted blue with a "noodle" GT?

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

[lock4244]

If I'm not mistaken, the Morning Sun Book 'Grand Trunk Western Vol 1' may be of some help. I recall some mention of three changes in the name placement on the geeps all within a few years.

[thomasjmdavis]

Thanks for the response, lock4244.  Did you mean the GTW "Motive Power" vol 1 or the GTW "Steam and Green" Vol 1?  In any case, I am trying to avoid adding another $50 book to my library on the hope that it might contain the bit of info I am looking for- which honestly should have been included in the instructions that came with the decals.

[Missaberoad]

At some point they were repainted into the later Olive/gold scheme.

This 1964 Louis Rague Photo shows this scheme.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/gtw/gtw4901alr.jpg

as does this undated Ray smith photo

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/gtw/gtw4901rsa.jpg

Edit:

Here's a pair of 1963 photos of 4900 to confirm both wore the later scheme

http://condrenrails.com/GTW/GTW-4900-South-Bend-IN-4-14-63.jpg
http://condrenrails.com/GTW/GTW-4915-South-Bend-IN-4-17-63-2.jpg

As for when they were repainted, that might be harder to track down...


Also as a point of order They wore Black and Red before the 1970's Blue...   
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/gtw/gtw4900jpa.jpg

[lock4244]

Thanks for the response, lock4244.  Did you mean the GTW "Motive Power" vol 1 or the GTW "Steam and Green" Vol 1?  In any case, I am trying to avoid adding another $50 book to my library on the hope that it might contain the bit of info I am looking for- which honestly should have been included in the instructions that came with the decals.

I'll check by copy when next I'm home.

[thomasjmdavis]

Missaberoad,

Thanks very much for those.  I feel a bit embarrassed that I somehow missed those shots when I checked Fallen Flags the other day- maybe I just assumed they would be in the later "noodle" scheme because of the dates.  To confuse things even more, here is a shot dated 6/11/56- another source has the renumbering as happening in May of 56.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/gtw/gtw1767alr.jpg

The paint scheme in those shots of 4901 is the one used on the GP-18s (2 lines on long hood), but the shot of 4900 in your last shot is the one used on the 1957 GP-9s (1 line on long hood).   Given that shot of 1767 dated June, I might just go ahead and use the original numbers.

[wcfn100]

I like the step handrails on those units.  I don't think I've seen (or at least noticed) that before where the cab-side rail angles with the steps. A Canadian thing?


Jason

[learmoia]

I like the step handrails on those units.  I don't think I've seen (or at least noticed) that before where the cab-side rail angles with the steps. A Canadian thing?


Jason

Yeah.. I think it's a GMD thing.. Manly (most) of the CN / GT (and CP) GPs have that..

[lock4244]

Page 36 of the Morning Sun book is this Emery Gulash shot of 4900 and 4901 together at Battle Creek, May 1959. Closest I can find to 1956, but proof that both had the sill lettering removed and applied to the hood. Can't say that the two different styles, single line vs two line lettering was done in '56, but it seems likely.

[thomasjmdavis]

Lock4244.

Thanks for looking that up for me, and for the reference.  It strikes me that there are 2 plausible explanations. (1) GTW painted one of each circa 1956 to see which they preferred.  And by the time they decided they liked the 2 line scheme better, EMD was too far along on the next order delivered 1957- in the one line scheme, but subsequent orders were delivered in the 2 line scheme. or (2) the 2 locomotives were repainted a year or two apart, with 4900 repainted in 56 or 57, and 4901 sometime after the 2 line scheme was adopted.

What is really annoying me is that I know I have read about this (maybe not in the detail I want at the moment, but the progression of the various schemes) somewhere, sometime.  Which usually means that the subject matter is covered in some old magazine sitting on my bookcase.  But so far, the online indexes haven't revealed anything.

[thomasjmdavis]

in case anyone else ends up trying to model Dearborn and/or GTW circa 1956-57, the answer may have been found.  Another modeler on one of the yahoo groups sent a message that there is a photo, dated August of 1957, of engine 4900, with the new number, but still in the original paint scheme with lettering on the sill, in Extra 2200 South, Sept 1974.

That's good enough for me.  Just did a coat of Microsol on the decals on the sills.

Thanks to everyone who responded here, yahoo and facebook.