Pulled a Peteski on my Bachmann K4 mech- need some advice

[Lemosteam]

John,

After a quick look and having already seen the shape of the frame and how it does not have a Belpaire shape do you think the shoulders of the boiler are solid?

Gary

I have an older MP 4-6-2 and I do like it and it runs well. But it has such small drivers. The NH I3s and I4s had 79 inch drivers and the MP doesn't even come close. Shave the Belpaire and the K4 is very close in nearly all other aspects.

@Specter3 yes they are solid, this picture shows the curvature and no recesses for the belpaire like the green lines I would have expected to see, so I think you could grind them off.  I also have not tried to cut/grind this shell so I don't know how hard it is.

@chicken45 may have done some grinding on his when he super detailed it?

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[havingfuntoo]

A quick note on teflon greases, don't use them in enclosed gear housings and when you do use them be frugal a little will go a long way. Teflon greases have tendency for the teflon to ball up when placed under pressure and can in some instances cause tolerances to be reduced but having said that there is plenty of play and movement in model trains .... so I suppose I am not serving any purpose by adding this to the discussion but it is typed now so  .... you can read it. 

[Lemosteam]

A quick note on teflon greases, don't use them in enclosed gear housings and when you do use them be frugal a little will go a long way. Teflon greases have tendency for the teflon to ball up when placed under pressure and can in some instances cause tolerances to be reduced but having said that there is plenty of play and movement in model trains .... so I suppose I am not serving any purpose by adding this to the discussion but it is typed now so  .... you can read it.

Still appreciated!!  Yeah these gears are pretty sloppy.  Planning on just a tiny trace on the pins and faces that trap the gear.

Would you recommend a different grease?

[chicken45]

@chicken45 may have done some grinding on his when he super detailed it?

I don't think I did any grinding.

[peteski]

A quick note on teflon greases, don't use them in enclosed gear housings and when you do use them be frugal a little will go a long way. Teflon greases have tendency for the teflon to ball up when placed under pressure and can in some instances cause tolerances to be reduced but having said that there is plenty of play and movement in model trains .... so I suppose I am not serving any purpose by adding this to the discussion but it is typed now so  .... you can read it.

I always apply grease and oil *VERY* sparingly.  I have never seen any sort of balling when taking the modals apart for tuneups. There is actually no need to even lube the POM (Polyoxymethylene or Delrin) gears, but since I like to lubricate the brass worm/POM worm gear meshing, I dab a little on the idler gears in the trucks (which spreads a trace of the grease to all the gears).

I also use the Hob-e-lube moly grease, but I usually use it on metal gears. Again, *VERY* sparingly.

[atsf3751]

Something that some manufacturers have not picked up on yet. I can still open a new engine and occasionally find the plastic wrapper soaked with oil.

"Sparingly" is the key word here.

[peteski]

Something that some manufacturers have not picked up on yet. I can still open a new engine and occasionally find the plastic wrapper soaked with oil.

"Sparingly" is the key word here.

This has been gong on for decades on Chinese-made models. Even the old Bachmann models made in Hong Kong were drenched in oil and grease.  Japanese-made Kato models were  fairly sparingly lubricated but I noticed that some of the new models they are also starting to apply more lubricants.  I'm wondering if they are starting to outsource assembly to China.  I know that their non rolling stock/locos models are made in China already.

[atsf3751]

I used to have to disassemble every engine I bought so I could remove all the existing factory applied grease and oil. Then oil it myself.

I put a small drop of oil on the motor bearings and worm gear bearings. And grease on the top truck gear and then run it slowly until the grease has migrated to all gears. Then reassemble and run it in both directions for about 30 minutes at several speeds.

[Chris333]

Does anyone know off hand what the size is of the coreless motor?

[Lemosteam]

Does anyone know off hand what the size is of the coreless motor?

@Chris333 I will measure and add it to the photos tonight, but I am fairly certain it is 8mm.  the length is in the 20-25mm range.

[havingfuntoo]

On metal surfaces I use products that have Molybdenum disulfide in their formula, it plates out rather than balling up. You will need to get a microscope to see the balling effect that occurs with teflon under pressure, it is this feature of teflon, (the balling effect) that makes it the best material to use as a tread seal in water and gas lines.
On plastics that need to be lubricated I like to use silicon based materials, the problem with silicon though it is very friendly with its surrounds and migrates to places you don't expect it to get to. Generally the only problem this creates is with paint adhesion, electric current flow has usually not been an issue.  I find it almost impossible to clean off completely so the golden rule of discrete and minimal application should be strictly adhered to. Also it can reduce the friction between axles and gears used on drive axles causing the gear to slip on the axle, so be alert if you do use it.       

[peteski]

On plastics that need to be lubricated I like to use silicon based materials, the problem with silicon though it is very friendly with its surrounds and migrates to places you don't expect it to get to. Generally the only problem this creates is with paint adhesion, electric current flow has usually not been an issue.  I find it almost impossible to clean off completely so the golden rule of discrete and minimal application should be strictly adhered to. Also it can reduce the friction between axles and gears used on drive axles causing the gear to slip on the axle, so be alert if you do use it.     

Those are the exact reasons I stay away from any silicone-based lubricants on models. I have some for other uses, but nowhere near my modeling workbench.  I have been using the hobby lubes (Moly and Teflon) for several decades on my N scale models and I have never seen any signs of problems caused by improper lubrication.  Like I said, the POM plastic doesn't even require lubrication, but I don't think it hurts it either.  However,  I have not examined the gear teeth surface under electron scanning microscope either. 

Since you know more about lubricants than I do, for what application is the white grease with Teflon designed for? Woodland Scenics does sell it as lubricant for models.

[havingfuntoo]

I am not familiar with that product, how do Woodland suggest the product be used and where? Often this type of product is used in moving parts where water is present, like in the handle mechanism of a tap, or when setting seals on pumps. May be where non self lubricating plastics and metal interact like coupler boxes when you don't want to use graphite ...... just guessing.

Peteski ......... electron scanning microscopes ......... don't have one of those at my disposal .....do  you? If so I think we should have a chat.

Basically, teflon will not deposit evenly on a bearing surface as other materials do like, moly and graphite. It tends to build up in one place and produce an uneven pressure, but again I can not see such problems occurring in a model train, may be live steam.       

[peteski]

I am not familiar with that product, how do Woodland suggest the product be used and where? Often this type of product is used in moving parts where water is present, like in the handle mechanism of a tap, or when setting seals on pumps. May be where non self lubricating plastics and metal interact like coupler boxes when you don't want to use graphite ...... just guessing.

Peteski ......... electron scanning microscopes ......... don't have one of those at my disposal .....do  you? If so I think we should have a chat.

Basically, teflon will not deposit evenly on a bearing surface as other materials do like, moly and graphite. It tends to build up in one place and produce an uneven pressure, but again I can not see such problems occurring in a model train, may be live steam.       

Here is a link to the item we are discussing: http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/Item/HL657/page/1

And some excerpts from that page:
White grease is a clean, non-staining and heavy load bearing grease with the super-slippery properties of PTFE lubricant. It is waterproof and protects against corrosion.
For use on:
• R/C model boat shafts and gear boxes
• Outdoor garden-railroad axles, journals and couplers
• Wheel bearings and outboard motors

The additional instructions are in http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/images/instructionsNew/HL657inst.pdf
Those state:
White, non-staining, super-slippery and waterproof. Heavy load bearing.
• R/C car and boat shafts, gears, axles and joints
• Model railroad (large-scale) transmission gears and bearings

I suspect that it is just repackaged version of one of DuPont greases: http://www.performancelubricantsusa.com/products/grease.php

So I guess that all these years I have been misusing it on N scale model plastic gears (with no ill effects as far as I can tell).  Oh well . . .

Here is what they say about their Hob-E-Lube Moly grease:
Made with Molybdenum. Covers the entire surface and maintains viscosity at high temperatures. High load-bearing grease that stays put, providing maximum no-drop lubrication and corrosion protection with minimum washout under exposed conditions. Waterproof.
For use on:
• HO scale and larger model railroad power transmission gears
• R/C boat propeller shafts
• R/C car gears, shafts, axles, joints and bearings
• Boat trailers and snowmobiles


I guess (going by their descriptions) none of their Hob-E-Lube greases are desgned for anythign smaller than H0 scale models.    But I'll just continue to use what I have been using for years.   

[Lemosteam]

Does anyone know off hand what the size is of the coreless motor?

@Chris333 I added a few more shots, one with a dimensioned drawing of the motor, 7mm dia X 16.59mm long.