MTL log cars.

[wcfn100]

I have three styles of MTL log cars and I don't know if or how these were used together.  I have the disconnects, 30' skeleton and 40' skeleton.  I'd like to keep a few for a small train to run behind a Climax and probably sell the rest.

Were there any standard practices with these?

Thanks,

Jason

[pdx1955]

Looking at my logging RR books seems to indicate that disconnects weren't in the same train as the skeletons. Shorter skeletons would be the rule for the steam era in most cases. Many of the pictures also showed standard 30' or shorter truss-rod flatcars (like the Fine N Scale kits) in use mixing with skeleton flats. Smaller operations or earlier-era (1890's - 1920's especially) had the most instances of pictures showing disconnects in use.

[atsf3751]

I am not a logging modeler so I could be wrong here, but it seems the economy of scale would be the factor here. A logging company would have a fleet of the type of car they used and not so much of the other kinds. Makes logistics a lot simpler.

If you are making a model of a logging train, I think disconnects would make the most interesting looking train.

[nkalanaga]

From what I've seen, disconnects were primarily a West Coast item, used where logs were big in diameter enough that one would make a load, and long enough that standard log cars couldn't carry them.  When you have a mill that can saw 90 ft logs, 30 to 40 ft cars won't work.  Also, there were still sailing ships in use in the early days of West Coast logging, and some of the logs were intended for ship masts.

Most of the roads also had some standard log cars, skeleton or full-deck, because all logs weren't that long, and a load of multiple small logs didn't work that well on the disconnects.  Three logs were the most common "small" load for them.  Some pictures show one big log, with a quite small one on each side, because the "cheese block" bunks wouldn't hold the large diameter logs well.

For the real long logs, it wasn't uncommon to have to couple the disconnects under adjacent logs with a pole, as they were far enough under the log that couplers wouldn't work.  Often, there was nothing between the trucks under a log, relying on the weight of the log to keep everything together.  Other times, especially with smaller logs, a similar pole was used, making two disconnects effectively a skeleton flat.

Full deck cars were also very useful for moving machinery and materials, while some of the portable buildings were designed to fit on the disconnects, with others being skidded onto regular log cars.

If you can find a copy of "Logging Railroads of Skagit County", by Dennis Blake Thompson (NWSL), there are some fascinating pictures of logging the big trees.  A steam dummy, from Portland's street railways, pulling a disconnect?

[Missaberoad]

Looking at Frank King's book in the north country it was mostly smaller 25-30' spine bunk cars and 36' truss rod flats.

Not a single photo appears of disconnects which is backed up by @nkalanaga 's statement that they were more of a west coast thing.

[randgust]

If you're talking "my" Climax A, those were a 1880's-1928 product and the biggest one built was 18 tons, which is dinky by any standard, although they did build them up until the last day of production in Corry.   They did make it all over the world, but by the time the west coast operations really got going, they were pretty tiny by comparison and the trees were a lot bigger there.

One of the biggest problems I had with the kit was that the typical small log cars used with these were no longer made by Quality Craft/Gloor.  I approached Alan Curtis with the problem and we agreed to joint-promote, I sent him drawings and he made a better car than QC ever did.  It is still offered in the N-scale kits line as a three-pack of 25' cars - cast metal.  http://www.nscalekits.co.uk/logcar.html     They are easy to build and track well, and a typical log train of these of 5-7 cars looks just right.    This is a very typical eastern car for the east, Michigan, even Arizona had them, but too small for the West Coast. 
 

The 40' cars were for big logs and the disconnects for even bigger ones.    I can't say that 'it never happened' by in my research I've never seen it.

If you're doing a nice big Atlas Shay (65-ton) the MT cars are appropriate, and big logs, too.

[coosvalley]

Logging RRs in New Hampshire used disconnects...Not even close to the west coast, either....Another thing to keep in mind, is that disconnects could not have air brakes, skeletons and flat decks could have them depending on the era, of course...

[randgust]

OK, I had to look it up.   

Those New Hampshire disconnects are cool.   Most disconnects suffered from a dependence on the logs substituting as a center sill, so you needed a big ol' heavy log in there to hook them together.

From what I can see here - these had some kind of telescoping sill with a link and pin, so they had the ability to handle smaller logs on a disconnect truck.

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-east-branch-lincoln-logging-railroad-in-lincoln-new-hampshire-usa-29799507.html

The truck looks exactly like the sideframes on my V&T ore car only all-steel... wow.

Are there any drawings of these anyplace?  That's a cool and unique car, quite unlike the archbar heavy-duty MT disconnect.

This pretty much proves your point, too, as this appears to be a true disconnect train with small logs on a disconnect-style truck with log bunks - no visible coupling under the car - and long poles or something to couple up to the locomotive.
http://www.plymouth.edu/gallery/weeks-act/files/2010/02/TrainOnTrestle_WeeksAct_08-960x650.jpg

Thanks for the posting, that's a great discovery, at least for me.

[coosvalley]

There are a ton of good books about NH's logging RRs, the ones by Bill Gove I highly recommend. One cool thing I found out was the even after air brakes were mandatory on Class 1's, disconnects were still used to get logs from the White Mountains to the Conway Lumber company, a distance of roughly 30-40 miles, and they had to travel over 2 class 1 lines, (B&M, MEC)...But nobody knows how they got away with doing this...No paperwork, no photos at all...It was speculated they ran the trains at night so as not to attract attention...

https://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3ABill%20Gove

[randgust]

If I had some better dimensions and photos, or plans, that's the kind of thing I'd love to make a kit from.   Those are quite unlike the MT disconnects.

I found the two cars and the saddletank sitting up at the entrance to the ski resort at Loon Mountain, NH on Google Earth.

I have two kids in Boston.... Hmmm, don't know if I can convince them to take a drive.

Do those books have any drawings?

[coosvalley]

Not the ones I've seen, but I've only seen about 3 of those books....I would point you in the right direction if I knew more!...Clarks Trading post/White mountain Central RR may own the cars at Loon MT and they also have a bunch on the property , sometimes they get used on Steam Days..They also have a beautiful Climax that runs, a Baldwin 2-4-2T, an 0-4-0, a Heisler and a Shay, though they have never operated the Shay ...They also have a working Lombard Steam Tractor,and a REO speedwagon Railbus..They also have a GE 80-tonner, and the only covered RR bridge still in service!

Some pics :

http://imagestorage.nerail.org/photos/2010/09/15/2010091507523724222.jpg

http://imagestorage.nerail.org/photos/2008/09/23/2008092320215330071.jpg

http://imagestorage.nerail.org/photos/2007/09/17/2007091719563624577.jpg

http://imagestorage.nerail.org/photos/2007/09/16/2007091622455313586.jpg

http://imagestorage.nerail.org/photos/2007/09/16/2007091622000513067.jpg

Oh and they have a Wolfman who chases the train..

http://imagestorage.nerail.org/photos/2007/09/17/2007091720213524920.jpg

[nkalanaga]

Randgust:  That "telescoping sill" was basically what many of the western companies used when they wanted to connect two disconnects, either to make a car, or to couple them when they were set back under a log.  Most of the western ones didn't actually telescope, they were just a pole with a link on each end.  Some roads used a steel cable, looped around the coupling pin at each end, rather than a pole.

That "Train on Trestle" is just the opposite of the Northwest roads.  Instead of disconnects for long logs, they're using them for the short logs, then piling longer ones on top.  Ingenious.  The bridge looks like something a modeler would build, one who knows nothing about bridges!  That isn't unusual for loggers, anywhere.

The New England loggers also had some long logs, although not as long as the giants of the West Coast.  New England trees were used from the earliest colonies for ship masts, and during colonial days, the Crown strictly regulated their cutting, to ensure a steady supply for the Royal Navy.

To go back to the size of the logs in the NW, English Lumber Company built their Sandy Creek Trestle in 1914.  Qualified engineers told them they couldn't do it, because the piles were too long and would bend rather than drive.  The longest were 125 feet long, 24 inches in diameter at the butt.  The ground was "hardpan", and the piles wouldn't go in, so they drilled and blasted a hole to start each one.  After that, they drove just fine.  The stringers were 16 inches thick, 32 to 96 feet in length.  All bracing was 4x10s.  Imagine the size of a sawmill that can saw a 96 foot log.  AT another trestle, they found that they couldn't drive one pile, because there was a very large cedar stump where it was supposed to go.  Rather than remove the stump, they cut the pile short, and nailed it to the top of the stump.  Whatever works, and if there isn't a prototype for it, it will become the prototype.

[Chris333]

The pole connecting them was called a "roster pole" or something similar. The Gazette has a set of drawings called "wildcats" that were in PA.

[prbharris]

I approached Alan Curtis with the problem and we agreed to joint-promote, I sent him drawings and he made a better car than QC ever did.  It is still offered in the N-scale kits line as a three-pack of 25' cars - cast metal.  http://www.nscalekits.co.uk/logcar.html     They are easy to build and track well, and a typical log train of these of 5-7 cars looks just right.

Thanks for that, Randy - and still selling well.

The 40' cars were for big logs and the disconnects for even bigger ones.  ....  If you're doing a nice big Atlas Shay (65-ton) the MT cars are appropriate, and big logs, too.

plus the 30' log flat cars and 40' log spinecars also available from www.nscalekits.com

If I had some better dimensions and photos, or plans, that's the kind of thing I'd love to make a kit from.  Those are quite unlike the MT disconnects.

or perhaps I can help out again!

Peter

Peter Harris
N Scale Kits
www.nscalekits.com

[wcfn100]

Thanks for the discussion guys.  I think I'm going to hang onto the 30' skeleton cars.

Anyone know/remember what the solution was for the Atlas Shay clicking?

Jason