Author Topic: Problems with Shinohara N scale three way turnout  (Read 1629 times)

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ChessieFan

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Problems with Shinohara N scale three way turnout
« on: October 24, 2016, 12:56:05 PM »
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I just installed and wired for DCC a Shinohara N scale three way turnout on My lout. The turnout came from old layout of Mine. I purchase the turnout in the 1983. Here Lies My Problem:

I first checked the turnout using DC power and the turnout checked out. Now I have installed on New Layout. I placed rail joiners on the two inbound stock rails and on the outside stock rails of the outbound left and right diverging rails. The remaining outbound rails have insulated rail joints.
When I set turnout for thru passage, the locomotive passes over the first set of points, but when it comes upon the second point rails it stalls then shorts out. If I give the locomotive a slight nudge on the engineers cab window toward the fireman's side of the locomotive, the locomotive moves and continues on thru the turnout to mainline line. But when I postion the point for either the left or right diverging routes the locomotive Does Not stall out, It runs completely thru the turnout.

Have I wired the turnout wrong for DCC or are additional gaps required? I checked the gaps at the first and second point rails and they out of spec.

I would greatly appreciate any Help.

jagged ben

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Re: Problems with Shinohara N scale three way turnout
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2016, 01:11:56 PM »
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I am not familiar with the design of the turnout but it sounds to me like you have the back of a wheel flange hitting a point or closure rail that is opposite polarity of the rail the wheel is riding on.   When you say you checked the gaps and they are out of spec, do you mean that the flangeways between the rails are too tight?  That would fit with what I mean.

On a lot of DC layouts unless you are going really slow a locomotive has enough momentum to ride through a temporary short like that and keep going.  However DCC is faster to detect a short and trip off, thus causing your locomotive to stall and get stuck at the short.   For this reasons turnouts where points don't match stock rail polarity are sometimes referred to as being 'non-DCC friendly'.   The reality is that it's a flaw for any turnout, but gets noticed more with DCC.   

Maybe you can post a photo of the turnout or someone can find a diagram online, because the solution is probably pretty particular to the product since this is a 3 way turnout. 

John

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« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 05:28:49 PM by John »

ChessieFan

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Re: Problems with Shinohara N scale three way turnout
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2016, 07:42:03 PM »
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First off Thank You for Responces.

 I tried the first time to Post a photograph of the turnout, but I failed. 
I will try again.

jagged ben

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Re: Problems with Shinohara N scale three way turnout
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2016, 11:00:19 PM »
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Well, judging from the metal throwbar parts holding the points together, I'm gathering that this is not in any way a 'DCC friendly' turnout.  That is, on either set of points, both points have the same polarity, which means the point that is not traveled over is opposite polarity from the stock rail.   One thing I can't tell from the photo is how the two sets of points are insulated from each other, which they must be for the straight route (but not the other routes.

One thing you might check before attempting any surgery on the turnout: make sure your loco wheels aren't out of gauge too narrow. 

My initial guess is that the problem would be between the upper point (in the photo) of the second set of points and the upper closure rail of the first set of points.  A photo of the turnout lined for the straight route might be helpful since that's when you're having the problem. 

ChessieFan

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Re: Problems with Shinohara N scale three way turnout
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2016, 07:58:34 AM »
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Jagged Ben,
Thank You for Comment.

I have included two (2) additional photos as You suggested.  One Photo is of the points aligned for travel straight thru the turnout. The other photo is shot of the point throw bars.  I tried to zoom in as close I could without distorting the Photo.

SP-Wolf

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Re: Problems with Shinohara N scale three way turnout
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2016, 11:59:54 AM »
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You have to isolate the frogs. This may help (It is HO - but, should give you some guidance)

http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=modelrailroading;id=13;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ewiringfordcc%2Ecom%2Fswitches_walthers_old%2Ehtm

Good luck,
Wolf

peteski

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Re: Problems with Shinohara N scale three way turnout
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2016, 12:10:49 PM »
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You have to isolate the frogs. This may help (It is HO - but, should give you some guidance)

http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=modelrailroading;id=13;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ewiringfordcc%2Ecom%2Fswitches_walthers_old%2Ehtm

Good luck,
Wolf

The frogs are isolated. All the rails exiting the turnout have insulating rail joiners on them (visible in the photos and described in the text), and the middle frog has gaps right out of the factory (clearly visible black areas in the rail head).

Friend of mine has that turnout on his layout and it has been operational since late '70s (through his DC and now DCC eras).  I don't think he had to do anything else besides what you did. The turnout is a bit problematic, but ti is usually causing stalling (as he depends only on the somewhat loose points to supply electricity to the rest of the turnout.

Like others have said, if your locos are actually shorting the booster (not just stalling) then the backs of the wheels are most likely touch the open point (which at that time has the polarity of the other rail).  Have you tried multiple locomotives? Do they all cause a short at the same spot?  Didi you check the gauge of those locos?  Maybe they are a bit too tight in gauge?

Does the loco go far enough to enter the area I outlined in red?  That to me looks like most likely place for a short (for straight route).  I also circled another possible short area at the wing rails (if the loco gets that far).

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« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 12:22:21 PM by peteski »
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ChessieFan

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Re: Problems with Shinohara N scale three way turnout
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2016, 05:57:13 PM »
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peteski,

Thank You for responding to My post.

  I Check the gauge of the locomotive(s) used, No problem. Second I ran a single Atlas GP-7 on thru track, It shorted ( front axle) at the second (2nd) spot outlined in Red on the thru portion of the turn out in the forward direction, No short in the rear direction.  Therefore I tried two (2) locomotives, both Atlas GP-7's, Once again the lead axle on the first locomotive shorted at the same location. Both locomotives stopped.  Once I gave a slight push on the Engineer's side of the locomotive it moved.  The Second locomotive, front axle shorted at the same spot, casusing both locomotives to stop.  Once again a gentle push on Engineer's side and the two (2) locomotives moved forward again.  Ran both locomotives  in the rear direction thru the turnout No short or stall.

  Therefore I tried Atlas SD-35 locomotives (single and two).  With a single SD-35 the lead axle on the front of the locomotive Stalled, No short at the same spot, but then moved on.  With two (2) SD-35 locomotives running Both Locomotives lead axles Stalled, but No short.  In the reverse direction No Stalls or Shorts thru entire length of the turnout.

  I hope this information can provide help into what corrective action I have to perform.

John

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Re: Problems with Shinohara N scale three way turnout
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2016, 08:37:24 PM »
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please take a meter and measure the voltage across both rails at all the various pieces of track ..  lets make sure there is power there .. 

please define "shorting"   does the booster trip, or does the locomotive just stall, like by lack of electrical contact ..

peteski

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Re: Problems with Shinohara N scale three way turnout
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2016, 10:54:57 PM »
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I agree with John.  Please define what is what. A short triggers the DCC booster circuit breaker to trip and cut off the track power.  Stalling is when a loco stops because it lost contact with one or both rails.

I suspect that you might be experiencing both problems: shorts and stalling due to loss of electrical contact.  They will have to be addressed separately.

Stalling is probably due to poor contact in the point areas: either the tip of the point is not positively contacting the stock rail or the point pivot (which is just a loose rail joiner) is not in good contact with the closure rail.

In your last install the DC locos behaved better most likely because the DC throttle breaker did not trip for short-duration shorts (which now trip the fast-acting DCC breaker).

--- Peteski de Snarkski

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ChessieFan

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Re: Problems with Shinohara N scale three way turnout
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2016, 09:06:41 AM »
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When I experience a Locomotive stall: The Locomotive headlight abruptly goes out, the locomotive abruptly stops, then starts up by itself or light touch of the finger starts it and moves down the track or is case thru the turnout.

When I experience a Locomotive short: The Locomotive headlight abruptly goes out, the locomotive abruptly stops and a clicking sound is emitted from the DCC Command station.  The clicking stops when I either move the locomotive down track or is this case thru the turnout, remove what is ever is metallic  laying across the rails or Shut Down Track Power.

I hope this Helps.

Rasputen

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Re: Problems with Shinohara N scale three way turnout
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2016, 11:18:03 AM »
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The fact that the locomotive goes through in the opposite direction, and that you can get it to go through by giving it a nudge on the engineer's side, pretty much says that there is not enough clearance in the second area that Peteski pointed out.
The wheels may be in gauge, but if the track is too wide at that point, the wheels will be too narrow relative to the track.
I have Shinohara turnouts and I have had to correct the track gauge on most of them in order to keep some locomotives from derailing.  The easiest solution here would be to use an abrasive cut-off disc mounted in a rotary tool, and very gently grind on the side of the rail as indicated.  DO NOT let the rail get too hot during this operation or you will melt the plastic around it.  Keep the speed of the tool down and use an Optivisor or other magnifying device to keep track of what you are doing.


davefoxx

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Re: Problems with Shinohara N scale three way turnout
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2016, 11:40:15 AM »
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As we all know, the gauge on most N scale locomotives from the factory is too narrow.  So, generally, I regauge most of my locomotives to correct this.  But, in my NMRA gauge, there's a fudge factor.  I regauge my wheelsets to the wide side of "in gauge," which helps them roll smoothly through Atlas Code 55 turnouts, especially #5s.  This might help prevent the back of your wheelsets from striking those spots in the turnouts causing the short circuits.

Hope this helps,
DFF

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dckuk

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Re: Problems with Shinohara N scale three way turnout
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2016, 11:47:20 AM »
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For what it is worth I have used one of these three-way turnouts on my layout for many years, with both DC and DCC power.

One thing I have found is that breaking the track into blocks, and adding insulated joiners at the diverging end of all turnouts (I don't have any double slip so don't ask) has eliminated shorting problems from my turnouts.

Because many of my locomotives are DC still, I do like to run them, and the block wiring allows me to run DCC on one track, and DC on another, by selecting the power option for each block.

Yes, I do have to be very careful, but it works.

I have only ever cut two turnouts following "advice", and they have both subsequently been replaced with "as built" versions.