I'm done with DCC, or nothing wrong with KISS

[tehachapifan]

Currently my 2 mainlines are still DC but I recently converted my branchline, where all the switching occurs, to DCC (well, part time as I can still switch it between DC and DCC). I have to say I've enjoyed the DCC aspect immensely. There has been quite a learning curve and my fair share of problems, but I like the challenge and all the possibilities DCC brings (sound, full-time lights, etc.). Still, I'm not planning on converting the mainlines anytime soon as I can't see a big benefit there, since I normally just turn them on and let them run.

[Rich_S]

OK, looks like it is time for my rant:

I swear that one of these days I'm going to either design my own DCC system or figure out how to hack the Digitrax firmware and 'fix' it. There is NO REASON that DCC should be this hard. I am an IT and former software writer and if I don't use Digitrax on a regular basis (and I don't since I'm a member of an N Trak group) I can't begin to remember everything I need to program and operate the system. I've been into model trains since WELL before DCC was available (I had a Keller system and MR CTI system...anyone even know what those were?) and have always been dumbstruck with how hard and user/operator evil it is. At the time it came out, the 'excuse' was that it was designed by engineers and that it would be simplified over time...didn't happen. Digitrax still has a controller with dozens of buttons that you have to hit in the right order to get it to do anything (and are poorly labeled as well). DCC was also to be inexpensive and possible for anyone to build and it isn't. If a DCC decoder retails for $21 (even though most newer locomotive decoders retail for $35), why do locomotive manufacturers charge that same $35 (full retail price) and more for an engine equipped with a decoder? Why does it cost $65 for a device that will ONLY control 4 switches (and you still have to buy the actual device to throw the switches). Shouldn't ONE device be able to control DOZENS of switches?           

However, if you ever want to run more than 2 locomotives at the same time (or two different locomotives MUed), DC makes it very difficult to do this as well. Isolating tracks and rails, reverse loops, yards are all a challenge and in a large layout you have to be an electronic master to be able to wire it (do you even know what a diode bridge is?) and it takes training to be able for someone to come in and operate it (flip this switch then set the rotary switch to here before turning the knob to make the engine go...oh, and make sure the next block is also set correctly before passing GO or you will go directly to jail).

Is DCC better than any other option available: yes. Is it as easy to use as it can be: not by a mile. Should it be: yes.

Rant ended

A very intelligent man named Albert Einstein once said, "Never memorize anything written in a book" I've had my current Digitrax system for 15 years and anytime I do not remember one of the programming steps, I simply refer to the operator manual. Not sure if they still supply the manuals with the systems today, but mine came with two, that answer just about any question you need answered.

Yes I remember the Keller Engineering ONBOARD Locomotive Sound and Control system. My first system was the Mann Made CTC 16 system, that John later upgraded to CTC 32. If people today think programming decoders is difficult, you should have tried the CTC system where you had to cut the traces in the PC board that lead to the IC chip to set the address. Cut the wrong traces and you just ruined a decoder. Plus there was no on the fly consisting with CTC 16. If you wanted a three unit consist, you either placed three decoders set to the same address in the three locomotives or you purchased what were known as MU decoders and ran jumpers to the main decoder. Also these decoders would only fit into "HO" scale or larger locomotives. Yes DCC has made life easier, is it perfect, no but it's better than what we had 20 to 30 years ago.     

[randgust]

I seem to recall reading about your TCS decoder problem in the critter chassis.  Witch such extended troubleshooting, I'm surprised that TCS did not borrow your model to do some in-house testing to see if they can fix the bug.  But it is what it is.

You might try revisiting this type if install.  Digitrax now has DZ126T ("T" for tiny - how cute) which is about the same size as that TCS dec0oder (and also cheaper).

Yeah, that's what I was hoping for myself! 

I could just barely get the Z2 in the roof of the Climax, but this is so close that it's worth a try.   Thanks!

[peteski]

Yeah, that's what I was hoping for myself! 

I could just barely get the Z2 in the roof of the Climax, but this is so close that it's worth a try.   Thanks!

My long-time (still unfulfilled) hope has been that some decoder manufacturer comes out with a "nano-decoder": A smallest possible simple 1-function or a motor-only decoder which could be shoehorned into small locos like the Atlas 4-4-0 American or other tiny locos.  Motor control is needed, and a single function could be useful for headlight control (since those locos don't have tender lights). But even just motor control would be sufficient (to keep the decoder size as small as possible).  The headlight could be dark or just wired to the track power to be always on.

The TCS Z2 and Digitrax DZ126T come close to what I envisioned, but I would like to see even a smaller decoder.

[PaulP]

Roger

 As per your power up question. That problem got me for a long time when I first got into DCC and Digitrax.
When you hit power and + look for the small icon dot on the upper right of your controller screen. It should be steady on and not blinking.
If it is blinking things will not run. Hit + again to get it steady on. I have no idea what the blinking mode is for , maybe someone else will fill
 you in on that, but that light must be steady on to have locos run.

Paul

[Nato]

                    I will agree that Digitrax  is a complex sometimes frustrating system having used it a few times, so there are other systems out there I think NCE is somewhat better we use it on the Wasatch N Scale layout, then there is CVP DCC I have not had the opportunity to operate on any layouts with this system. Remember too there is wireless DC the problem is companies like CVP no longer support their system, I know my home layout is CVP wireless DC it will be converted some day so that at the flip of a switch it can go from DC to DCC and back, yes I own far too many old school non Plug and Play DC locomotives to convert everything and with a modest size layout even run them all. I do not know if the old Aristo Craft wireless DC system is still out there, but I would say wireless DC is the other way to go or be daring and go with the Infrared Rail Lynx system which is in the minority, but whose electronics are finally able to fit in most N Scale locomotives. Nate Goodman (Nato).     

[narrowminded]

My long-time (still unfulfilled) hope has been that some decoder manufacturer comes out with a "nano-decoder": A smallest possible simple 1-function or a motor-only decoder which could be shoehorned into small locos like the Atlas 4-4-0 American or other tiny locos.  Motor control is needed, and a single function could be useful for headlight control (since those locos don't have tender lights). But even just motor control would be sufficient (to keep the decoder size as small as possible).  The headlight could be dark or just wired to the track power to be always on.

The TCS Z2 and Digitrax DZ126T come close to what I envisioned, but I would like to see even a smaller decoder.

I've shoehorned a CT DCX76z into my Nn3 mine loco.  Part of the development.  A compensated chassis, too.  It was an absolute nightmare though.  New gears I'm working on are largely to be able to maintain the same outside dimensions but move the decoder up top.  A little more user friendly.  I said "a little".    Decoder is basically .26" X .35" X .07" as measured. It worked good.  Here's a link with some info on those and more. http://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/cte/dcx76z-series

And then there's this one.  I just saw this.  Might have to give it a real look.  http://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/cte/micro-decoder

[OldEastRR]

The technology shift in an established field of work causes problems wherever it occurs. Some steamer engineers never got the hang of diesels to make them run right. Commercial airline prop plane pilots sometimes washed out when they couldn't switch to flying a jetliner. Model railroading has gone an incredibly long time with the DC power system -- easily four or five generations -- so it's solidly embedded as the standard for many modelers. Of course it's not going to be an easy changeover for everybody.
However, how many of us, after the crash of a two-wheel bike that skinned both knees and gashed a hand said "That's it! I'm putting the training wheels back on and keeping them there!"?

[peteski]

However, how many of us, after the crash of a two-wheel bike that skinned both knees and gashed a hand said "That's it! I'm putting the training wheels back on and keeping them there!"?

While you had some good analogies, this IMO is not quite appropriate.  No matter how intimate and well-versed you are with your DCC system, those electronic gremlins (which affect all computer devices) occasionally show up causing frustration.  It is sometimes beyond the user's control. Then sometimes you run into compatibility issues which need to be worked out. If DCC was dead-reliable that would be a different story, but it is not.

I would say that if you want to compare DCC to bicycles, it is not about the training wheels but more about things like flat tires, chain falling off, or accessories which do not fit the bike properly. 

[Kentuckian]

                    I will agree that Digitrax  is a complex sometimes frustrating system having used it a few times, so there are other systems out there I think NCE is somewhat better we use it on the Wasatch N Scale layout,   

I have very little experience with Digitrax but what I had was not good.  A friend introduced me to NCE and I like it.  I just have the starter set for my HCD layout and it has been reliable.  I know this is a small test environment and most anything would probably work.

Sound is a big part of the experience for me.  Being from the hills of eastern Kentucky, I almost always heard the trains before I saw them.  Loren does make some excellent points, though.

Repeat after me . . .  NCE . . . .NCE . . . . NCE . . . .

[randgust]

Forever the contrarian....

I got one of those 'third wheel' trailer bicycle attachments when my sons were little.   All three used it as they grew up.   Son #3 loved it so much he wouldn't ride his own bike, and he was strong enough to push me along so I put up with it.

If you've never had one of those, once they get moving, they are just fine, but getting started from a dead stop with an off-balance kid behind you is a real challenge.   I really did put training wheels on the trailer bike, and after several spills where the kid ended up all scraped up as well as me, I never took them off again.   And the lady I sold it too kept them on as well.

If the analogy fits, wear it proudly.      

What's even funnier is that apparently, I had pretty good reason!   http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2005/CPSC-Nashbar-Direct-Announce-Recall-of-Bicycle-Trailers/

[JMaurer1]

Yes I remember the Keller Engineering ONBOARD Locomotive Sound and Control system. My first system was the Mann Made CTC 16 system, that John later upgraded to CTC 32....Also these decoders would only fit into "HO" scale or larger locomotives. Yes DCC has made life easier, is it perfect, no but it's better than what we had 20 to 30 years ago.   

I also had the CTC 16 system...in fact I ran across a box of electronic parts that I was building decoders out of a few weeks ago (couldn't remember what the parts were for until you said CTC 16). People don't know how easy they do have it now. Keller ONBOARD could be shoehorned into SOME HO engines, but sound (and I had several units with sound...I was HO back then) needed a dummy and was still tight at that. Since those early systems were were difficult to use, I would have hoped that things would have progressed much further by now...Digitrax reminds me of those early systems when it comes to programming them. Oh, and yes I do use JMRI. Any time someone (or in this case, a group of someones) feels the need to write software to make something else work...easier, there's something wrong with your product. Still, Digitrax is the Ford AND the Chevy of the DCC world.

[R L Smith]

Count me in the "I'll never go back to DC" camp.  I use a Lenz system and have had no issues in over 15 years and I am as techno-challenged as they come. My biggest difficulty is installing decoders in non-friendly chassis, but that's what friends are for!  Right @mu26aeh? 

I fully understand the cost aspect for those with large locomotive fleets, and would never try to convince someone to make that investment in an established layout. But if a beginner asked me for advice, I'd say DCC in a heartbeat:

- Starting out, most people aquire locos one or two at a time (just like rolling stock, structures, stc.), so the added cost can be planned for and managed. 

- Starting out, small tabletop layouts or HCDs are common, and a starter DCC set is fine for a starter layout and not much more expensive than two good quality DC power packs.  The time not spent wiring up the layout for block control and building a control panel can be used to build scenery and structures (or just run trains!)

- Using my own 12' x 14' layout (5 years old, fully scenicked awaiting more structures) as an example, I have a double-track mainline loop and a branchline.  With DCC I run two trains on each mainline track during open houses.  It's hands-free so I can talk with my guests while the trains are running.  When I'm running solo, I still run a train on each main hands-free while I switch the branchline. Neither of those scenarios are easily accomplished without significantly more complex wiring in DC.

Full disclosure, as I begin to acquire sound-equipped engines I am finding the limitations of the 15-year old Lenz system.  I will have to upgrade to a newer version (or competitor's system) in order to be able to access all the features available in today's decoders.  So there's a cost to be planned for and managed, but that original investment paid off in spades in terms of operating enjoyment for me.  YMMV.

RLS

[Hamaker]

Like R.L. Smith, I too am 'techno challenged'.  I've run DCC since 2005 and love it for the same reasons.  I regret the years I refused to upgrade from DC to DCC.  I'll have a problem every once in awhile, but have always been able to figure it out.  I did have to ship my controller back to Digitrax for repair about two years ago.....fixed at no cost other than the postage to mail it to them.  I had it back on my layout running trains three weeks after shipping it to them.

On my two small switching layouts, I still use the old DC systems.

[mu26aeh]

I jumped into DCC after buying a MRC soundbox and not really liking it.  I returned it to the LHS and figured they already had a good chunk of my money, so I gave up the rest of the money to get a Digitrax Zephyr.  I'm not certain why I went with Digitrax, maybe it was the only starter set in stock at time, maybe it was cheaper.  I haven't had too many problems that others are mentioning.  I will agree that trying to read and understand the manual is not the easiest thing to read.  Perhaps they should release a " Dummies for Digitrax " book.  I recently upgraded to add a booster and DT400/402 throttles ( still need to get one back to @Ed Kapuscinski ) .  I also added a PR3 and JMRI, thanks again to Ed K and now instead of understanding Digitrax, I'm trying to figure out JMRI.  With the help of Ed and the JMRI Yahoo Group, that makes it much easier.  Don't write off DCC just yet, you have TRW to help out, and check in on one of the manufacturer Yahoo groups.  Between the different forums, if you have problems it's almost a certainty that someone else had same issues and can walk you thru fixing the problem.