ATSF head end cars on eastern roads and clearance issues

[thomasjmdavis]

Thought rather than hogging Bruce Arbo's thread on building N scale ATSF baggage cars, I would bring this conversation over here and seek some information.  We were discussing how many ATSF head end cars migrated to the eastern roads on occasion in express service.  It was fairly common to see Erie, NYC, PRR etc cars in the ATSF Fast Mail, and occasionally other trains.  But to what extent did the ATSF cars go the other way?  The ATSF express reefers and express box cars (FE-24 and later) were 15' tall and listed in some drawings as "excessive height."  I've read that there were tunnels and some station platforms in the east where there was not sufficient height for use of these cars.  Is this correct?

Also, broadly, wondering how prototypical it would be in the 50s (my era) or anytime after WW II for ATSF baggage cars to be in express service east of Chicago and KC.  Fast Mail consists show a fair amount of traffic going between LA and NYC, and other eastern destinations, but not specific on whether this was on ATSF cars, or it was all handled by returning cars from NYC and PRR that had delivered express from NYC to LA.

Info would be useful- we N scalers have had several releases of new HW baggage cars in recent years, and are wondering how much "mixing and matching" we can do.

[nkalanaga]

Tunnels shouldn't be a problem, as the standard Plate B, or unrestricted, boxcar can be up to 15'1",  Station platform canopies might be an issue, but I'd think that most railroads would have fixed those as well.

[pjm20]

While I was doing some more research I came across a post of a guy who worked for the Santa Fe in the 60s. The Santa Fe would deadhead all foreign express cars on freights back east while their own cars were loaded and put back onto passenger and express trains. Also, the post from the PRRT&HS discussion board where the guy has the consist reports only has them for the 60s, so we do not know if AT&SF head end cars were in the east earlier.

[pjm20]

Well, here is a candidate for a western express car in the east:



This is from Bob Coolidge's site. The caption is "The "Pennsylvania Limited" leaves Pittsburgh, PA for Chicago in the early morning of a gray day in May, 1966".

I have zero idea what is at the end of the Pennsylvania Limited, maybe a freak NH car, maybe a western car?

[pjm20]

Found one (off same website as above):



Caption: "The westbound 'Pennsylvania Limited' from New York arrives at Englewood, Chicago on November 13, 1966".

So were western cars were likely in the 60s, but so far really nothing concrete for earlier.

[pjm20]

Note that the UP car is at the end of the consist to make switching easier, like the transcon sleepers. This means that the mystery express car in Pittsburgh is also a western cars since it is at the end of the consist.

[Sokramiketes]

The gray one is likely an SP economy baggage. 

The eastern baggage cars were migratory mostly due to magazine shipments.  The NYC 70' baggage cars and PRR B60b's ended up everywhere in this service. 

That's also why you wouldn't necessarily see a corresponding ATSF move eastbound.

[pjm20]

True, but western cars did come over occasionally, I just want to figure out who and when.

Here are some more mystery cars on the Penn Texas in December of 1967 (the two silver ones right after the PRR express box):



Still nothing earlier that the 60s.

[Brian M]

In the Classic Trains special issue, "Trains of the 1940's", there is an article about New York Central operations at Spuyten Duyvil written by a former tower operator.  He provided an overview of the schedule of trains that would pass through on 3rd trick, and mentions that mail and express cars would be brought up from the West Side to get added to passenger trains or put into the dedicated mail and express trains to head west.  While there aren't any pictures, he says that cars from the West Coast were common, and listed a handful of railroads.  I think the Rock Island, CB&Q, ATSF, and SP, but I'd have to double check the article.  I'm certain that I've seen pictures of such foreign road cars on the NYC from at least the 1950's, I'd just have to think about where I might have seen those pictures.  I model the NYC in '49, so I'm always on the look out for reason to include interesting cars in train consists.

-Brian.

[Brian M]

Here's a little more non-photographic evidence.  This is a list of instructions for the operation of foreign road box-express cars, which outlines what cars from what railroads have restrictions on where they can operate on the NYC:

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/NYC-BX-Restrictions.pdf

This particular version of the document is from 1963 (see the last page), but lists earlier revisions, going back to 1946.  It lists cars from both other eastern roads and plenty of western roads.

-Brian.

[Spikre]

 
   no Clearance problems on Erie,western cars could go all the
   way to Jersey City until 1956,Hoboken after that through
  the EL years .
   after 1970s DQ of the Lake Cities Express would ride in Contianers,
   or trailers mostly on the NY Pig trains.
       Spikre
         

[Chris333]

Erie has drawings/charts that show any areas were there might be a clearance problem. I'm guessing some sort of agent made sure there wasn't a problem.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/dwg/2544-a27s1.gif

Mostly bridges and overpasses.

[nkalanaga]

The GN, and probably other roads, had "BX" express boxcars that were simply standard boxcars with passenger air brakes and steam lines.  In a freight train, they looked like any other box, and did stand higher than most passenger cars.  These could possibly have posed clearance problems in some stations.  The also had "BX" express cars built to passenger train standards, the type most modelers think of as "express boxcars".

[chicken45]

Great thread!

[pjm20]

Here is a ATSF car in NJ, 1972: