Author Topic: ATSF 3460 Blue Goose Build  (Read 20908 times)

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Cajonpassfan

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Re: ATSF 3460 Blue Goose Build
« Reply #105 on: November 16, 2014, 08:05:25 PM »
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Is it desirable for the metal collars to be light friction fit on the axles?  Won't the drivers go out of quarter easily?  Oh, the collars will not sit on the ends of the axles but behind the wheel?  The tight fit will be between the 0.071" axle and the center hole of the FVM driver?

Also, how will the metal collars get electrically connected to the metal tire on the FVM drivers? Thin large diameter washer?

I thnk that I might have figured it out - in bold

Lol...:) I love the way you *boldly* answer your own questions, Peteski  :D
Yes, that's the theory, that and some conductive paint on the back of the driver...
We'll see if it works in practice...
Regards, Otto K.

mmagliaro

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Re: ATSF 3460 Blue Goose Build
« Reply #106 on: November 16, 2014, 08:29:12 PM »
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That "BARE" conductive paint stuff is all carbon based as far as I know, and I don't recommend it.
It doens't hold up well over time, and it can spectacularly fail if there is even a temporary
short that runs a lot of current through it (read "spectacularly fail" as "heat up, melt wheels, catch fire.")

Maybe to test out the theory, ok.  But I strongly recommend chipping that stuff out of there afterward and going with
something nickel or silver based, even though they are pricey.

Cajonpassfan

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Re: ATSF 3460 Blue Goose Build
« Reply #107 on: November 16, 2014, 08:48:50 PM »
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That "BARE" conductive paint stuff is all carbon based as far as I know, and I don't recommend it.
It doens't hold up well over time, and it can spectacularly fail if there is even a temporary
short that runs a lot of current through it (read "spectacularly fail" as "heat up, melt wheels, catch fire.")

Maybe to test out the theory, ok.  But I strongly recommend chipping that stuff out of there afterward and going with
something nickel or silver based, even though they are pricey.

Max, OMG, you are scaring me now,  :? but I do respect your judgment. Melted drivers and burnt down train rooms is NOT where we want to go. This stuff I bought at RadioShack was not exactly cheap.... So what brand or supplier do you recommend?
Thanks for saving me from myself....
Regards, Otto K.

PS: Jason, any progress with the Goose? I feel like a trespasser here...
« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 08:50:41 PM by Cajonpassfan »

superturbine

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Re: ATSF 3460 Blue Goose Build
« Reply #108 on: November 16, 2014, 09:20:00 PM »
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You're good Otto,

I am enjoying the brain storming.  I have not made any progress on my end.  I've been bogged down on piles of paperwork.

Keep it going!

peteski

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Re: ATSF 3460 Blue Goose Build
« Reply #109 on: November 16, 2014, 10:02:46 PM »
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Otto,
there are silver-based or nickel-based conductive paints. Silver is better (more conductive) but more expensive.  I suppose those could be used to connect the tire to the collar.  But I still wouldn't trust conductive paint in this application.  I would be afraid that in time the paint might crack when applied over the plastic wheel center due to different expansion rates of the plastic, metal and the paint itself.  I'm probably paranoid...
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Lemosteam

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Re: ATSF 3460 Blue Goose Build
« Reply #110 on: November 17, 2014, 08:53:00 AM »
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Duh, uh, CARBON fiber, Johnny!  What about fiberglass rod?
John "Lemosteam" LeMerise

mmagliaro

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Re: ATSF 3460 Blue Goose Build
« Reply #111 on: November 17, 2014, 12:08:58 PM »
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The stuff I use is Nickel Print by MG Chemicals.
You can get it at Amazon.com (among other places)
http://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals-Nickel-Liquid-Container/dp/B008OA94T6

Let me tell you a story about a repaired brass 4-8-4 I did for someone.  Lacking enough electrical
pickups, I noticed that the front pilot truck could easily pick up current from at least one
rail if the wheelsets were the type that were "hot" on one side and insulated on the other.
Unfortunately, they were insulated on both sides (Plastic centers).
Worse, they were oddball 42" wheels.  Not wanting to compromise on a brass engine with
wheels that were "close enough", I though I had the ingenious idea of using conductive paint
on the one side, on the back side of the wheels.

I used that "Bare" stuff.   

Yes, it worked.  I gained 2 wheels of pickup on that rail.  It made a nice difference.  It eliminated the last little
bit of occasional stalling this engine had.

The engine went back to its proud owner, who ran it with a decoder.  He said it ran beautifully for hours,
until he was backing it through a turnout which had caused him some DCC/short issues before (with lots
of engines, not just this one).

A short occured at the turnout.  Before the booster tripped, the short happened to conduct right
through the pilot wheels and bam!   The plastic centers melted, hopelessly ruining the wheelsets.

Sigh.

I then contracted Northwest Shortline to turn me a bunch of sets of custom-made 42" wheels with
the axle size I needed, hot on one side.  We replaced his wheelsets with those, and all was well.

Thus endeth my trust in "Bare" conductive paint.
Looking at the post mortem, what had happened was that the Bare stuff smoked and burned under the high
current.  If it had promptly burned through and broken the circuit, that would have been okay.
But no... it unfortunately conducted with a little resistance, and generated lots of heat, before it
finally gave up.

As for Peteski's fears about the stuff chipping away or losing contact, yes that's always a possibility.
But the Nickel Print stuff seems to be a very hearty epoxy with nickel powder suspended in it.  I have used it
on a bunch of wheels over the past year and haven't had any fail.  In fact, some of the drivers in my
recent W-5 were repaired using that stuff (the Kato drivers that lose their contact on those little bronze fingers).
I think I would trust it.

It's VERY important to stir stir stir STIR until you can't stir no more....  or the stuff won't work.
You have to get the nickel thoroughly distributed through the mix before applying the stuff
or you'll get goo that doesn't conduct.

Cajonpassfan

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Re: ATSF 3460 Blue Goose Build
« Reply #112 on: November 17, 2014, 01:12:03 PM »
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Max, THANK YOU for taking the time to share this....that's quite a story.
It would be a sad irony to melt these drivers... after going into all this trouble.
I'm now looking for the good stuff...
Otto K.

peteski

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Re: ATSF 3460 Blue Goose Build
« Reply #113 on: November 17, 2014, 03:38:51 PM »
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My recommendation is to go up to the silver-based conductive paint.  I use Circuit Works brand pen which I bought several years ago. It is pricy, but to me worth it.  I haven't used for the specific application discussed here but I have used in several other applications, and it works great.  Searching the Web I now see that this company also makes nickle-based paint and also flexible silver-based paints.  The flexible option looks interesting.

https://www.chemtronics.com/c-275-circuitworks-conductive-pens-and-inks.aspx

You can find these items at online electronic parts suppliers and also on Amazon.

And as Max says - stir or shake the stuff until your arm falls off!  The metal particles really separate from the paint's vehicle and solvent.
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robert3985

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Re: ATSF 3460 Blue Goose Build
« Reply #114 on: November 17, 2014, 04:22:07 PM »
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Otto,

Okay...got the Delrin rod chucked up in my lathe and I'm ready to go.  Got your correction of my typo, so all is well as I'm working off my drawing which has the correct length.  Got your PM with your shipping information.  I'll be shipping tomorrow.

...And as Max says - stir or shake the stuff until your arm falls off!  The metal particles really separate from the paint's vehicle and solvent.

As to "shaking" and "mixing" paint.  I bought a little Badger battery powered mixer a couple of years ago at a train show, and it has really improved my paints' coverage as well as its smoothness.  I could shake a bottle of paint all day and it wouldn't get to the quality that 30 seconds being mixed with this little tool.  It's the best $12.00 I've spent in a long time.

Micro Mark carries their own brand, which looks virtually identical to the Badger and it's available here: http://www.micromark.com/cordless-mixer-for-model-paints,7616.html

peteski

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Re: ATSF 3460 Blue Goose Build
« Reply #115 on: November 17, 2014, 04:37:37 PM »
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As to "shaking" and "mixing" paint.  I bought a little Badger battery powered mixer a couple of years ago at a train show, and it has really improved my paints' coverage as well as its smoothness.  I could shake a bottle of paint all day and it wouldn't get to the quality that 30 seconds being mixed with this little tool.  It's the best $12.00 I've spent in a long time.

Micro Mark carries their own brand, which looks virtually identical to the Badger and it's available here: http://www.micromark.com/cordless-mixer-for-model-paints,7616.html

It is a great hint ( I have and use one of those paint stirrers), but in this case the paint is inside a pen. It would be kind of tough to put the mixer in that.  :D

BTW, Ive seen the same (or a clone) of that paint stirrer in a dollar store (for couple or three bucks) sold as a drink stirrer.  Also, it seems to aerate/froth water based acrylic paints.  That results in lots of air bubbles when brush painting. The bubbles do not seem to burst or level out as the paint dries. I no longer use it with PollyScale paints (if I intend to brush paint).
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robert3985

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Re: ATSF 3460 Blue Goose Build
« Reply #116 on: November 17, 2014, 04:49:41 PM »
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It is a great hint ( I have and use one of those paint stirrers), but in this case the paint is inside a pen. It would be kind of tough to put the mixer in that.  :D

BTW, Ive seen the same (or a clone) of that paint stirrer in a dollar store (for couple or three bucks) sold as a drink stirrer.  Also, it seems to aerate/froth water based acrylic paints.  That results in lots of air bubbles when brush painting. The bubbles do not seem to burst or level out as the paint dries. I no longer use it with PollyScale paints (if I intend to brush paint).

Hahaha!!...nope...not going to work with a "pen"! Duhhhh.... :facepalm:

On my PollyScale paints, I make sure I keep the circular "mixer" on the bottom of the bottle, which solves the aeration problem for me.  I notice that the new Badger mixers have a spiral shaft, which may contribute to aeration.  The shaft on mine is smooth, which doesn't seem to add bubbles. 

mmagliaro

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Re: ATSF 3460 Blue Goose Build
« Reply #117 on: November 17, 2014, 04:53:49 PM »
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+1 on the silver idea.
But be aware, the price jumps a lot for the silver-based stuff.   That Chemtronics pen with the silver in it
is about $40 (just webbing around for  it....)

MG also makes "Silver Print", a silver-based version of Nickel Print... for $58/jar instead of $15.
They also make a Copper version that is somewhere between the two.

I'll leave it to you to weigh the cost vs conductiveness benefit.  Only remember, your loco wheels
are plated in nickel, so I still think that ought to be plenty conductive.    I would just be sure to avoid the carbon
stuff.

Cajonpassfan

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Re: ATSF 3460 Blue Goose Build
« Reply #118 on: November 17, 2014, 08:24:43 PM »
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Oh, too late on the silver, already ordered the MG Nickel paint for about $20 including shipping. For this application, Nickel should be plenty conductive. Just got to stir stir stir.... Should get here by Friday, about the time Bob's custom made axles get here.... gotta love this site and the people on it! 8)
Thanks guys!
Otto K.

PS: anybody wanna buy some Bare Electric Paint?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 08:26:44 PM by Cajonpassfan »

peteski

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Re: ATSF 3460 Blue Goose Build
« Reply #119 on: November 17, 2014, 09:39:08 PM »
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There is quite a difference in conductivity between nickel and silver paints.  Nickel is about 1 ohms/sq/mil and silver is 0.02 ohms/sq/mil.
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