Intermountain SD40-2 !!11!

[6axlepwr]

Before I respond, I ask the moderator to NOT lock this thread. It is not an argument or flame war. it is a discussion.

Scott, I respect your point of view. My post was an opinion piece. I take full responsibility for posting it and I stand by what I posted. I am not asking folks not to buy them. This is a discussion forum as if we were all together and I posted what I think of IM locomotives.
 

I give them credit where it is due, and outright reject the contempt some people feel they need to heap on this company.   Where that venom comes from is beyond me.

I do not have contempt for IM. I have distaste and disappointment in their approach to design for N-Scale. If they put half as much effort into N-Scale as they do HO, then maybe there would be something to hoot about and in the HO Locomotive arena, IM is not all that great either and that is not my opinion, that is the opinion of many great modelers. Now I am talking locomotives, not freight cars.

The venom comes from frustration. Frustration that the model (SD40T-2, SD45T-2 & SD45-2) COULD have been a diamond. Instead IM dumbed it down and built a sows ear. The technology is there for N-Scale. Athearn and Atlas prove it all the time with their high end freight cars. BLMA, Wheels of Time, Rapido, ESM and TrainWorx prove it all the time with their freight car releases. Our freight cars have taken leaps ahead of our locomotives. So why can't the high fidelity freight car tooling be put to use on Locomotives? So far I can only say that Atlas is the ONLY company that has improved the fidelity of N-Scale locomotives. Kato is good, but they still have not pushed all that far. N-Scale has yet to see anything like what the HO market is getting. I am curious to see how MT does with their switcher.  One of the reasons, and I blame the N-Scale community as a whole, is N-Scalers are all to happy to throw praise at companies just because they release something to us. No matter how bad it is. The HO market demanded better detail and fidelity and now they are enjoying the fruits of their complaints. Athearn OWNS the HO market now because they stepped OUTSIDE the box. They produce one off locomotives and they sell out and that is because they deliver high fidelity models. N-Scale locomotive models are akin to Athearns Blue Box of the 1970's and '80's.

N scale would be poorer without IM and asking them to exit n scale modelling is near to the most pointless thing I have read on this thread.

I did not ask IM to exit N-Scale. I asked them to stop making N-Scale locomotives. I will edit that that remark though. I ask IM to stop making N-Scale locomotives until they can put as much effort and care into them to produce a high fidelity model. We already have a Bachmann, we do not need two of them.

I don't have any skin in this game, but I sure see the importance of another company putting out an important model like the SD40-2.

I have skin in all offerings because modeling is a passion of mine. All my free time is spent modeling and trying to produce models to my standards and I have high standards for myself. The two key words there are "for myself". Not anyone else, but for myself. Whatever the manufacturers put out is simply a blank canvas for me to work on. The better the model, the less I have to do to make it better. I can use the tunnel motor shell, but it is going to take a HEAP of work to make it presentable to "my" standards.

You said it yourself Scott. The SD40-2 is an important model. I say it deserves a company that can and will give it the time and care to produce it properly. IM will not. IM will not give it even a fraction of the time that they give their HO models. BTW, the HO community views the IM HO version of the SD40-2 as a heaping pile as well. Believe it or not, the old Athearn Blue Box SD40-2 in HO is still the SD40-2 king for that scale.

[ljudice]

I've got to say, I'll take Kato's approach any day - rock solid operation, snap together construction and models that don't fall into a million pieces every time you pick them up.

Maybe N-scale is better off without 30 million separately applied detail pieces?

There is a tradeoff between scale fidelity and manufacturable,  field survivable product design! 

 

[lock4244]

 

I think it'd be more productive to ponder why no other Mfg has jumped into the SD40-2 market than dump on IM for taking the plunge.

This is far from just accepting the 'crap' we are thrown, but perhaps some scorn should be leveled at the Mfg's that have completely ignored the SD40-2 FOR DECADES and left the market wide open for the apparent bane of N scale to own... which they most certainly will. If Atlas and a few others were timid of going toe to toe with Kato over what is arguably the most significant diesel locomotive since the FT, then no one will consider it now. Yeah, I'm glad someone nutted up to do them regardless of their past faults, since none of the others seemed willing. And while it's true that the TM's are pretty bad, the SD40-2W was an improvement. I see signs of hope here.

I also applaud the willingness to risk doing road specific units, which to me is an improvement over 'generic model with every f**king scheme possible' on it. You have a choice between a turd sandwich and a giant douche. Choose the turd and you have to do some work to get it to run the way you want. Choose the douche and you have to do some work to get it to look the way you want. The TM is a turd sandwich every bit as much as the tri-mount trucked C630's in Canadian schemes are giant douches. Why is one ok because it costs too much to tool proper trucks, while the other is a sin because they used some glue (which last time I checked, we all do from time to time)? This I don't get.

What seems obvious to me is that no one else was going to bother to do the SD40-2. If they were, the question is... what were you waiting for?

[Kisatchie]

Even though Intermountain isn't making any roadnames I'd like, it doesn't matter since I'll be modeling 1971, the year before the SD40-2 was introduced.

I do find it irritating that so many people are criticizing the model even though it hasn't been put on the market yet. I thing that is grossly unfair.


Hmm... I'll take a gross
of termites, please...

[6axlepwr]

I've got to say, I'll take Kato's approach any day - rock solid operation, snap together construction and models that don't fall into a million pieces every time you pick them up.

Maybe N-scale is better off without 30 million separately applied detail pieces?

There is a tradeoff between scale fidelity and manufacturable,  field survivable product design! 

I do not see any trade offs with what Atlas is doing. I think the Atlas model is very survivable in the field. Their shells are VERY nicely done. The door latches are beautiful. Atlas has VERY crisp detail with thin paint and lettering. I am not asking for railroad specific details. I am not asking for wire grab irons or lift rings. I can add all these details myself. I am asking for models that ride at the correct height off the rails. Good depth and detail in the truck side frames, A deep slung fuel tank. A sill unit that is separate from the hand rails and well rendered fans.

So far Atlas has delivered on all but one item. The fuel tank and that I understand why. That could be fixed though. All the fine details I want to add, I can do myself.

The IM Tunnel motor has a skyscraper air conditioner on it and the thickness of the DB contactor door is what about a scale foot. And that exhaust stack, What the heck is that! I do not have even the smallest fraction of the budget that IM has when they commit to a model and I can produce better fidelity parts than what they have done with the Tunnel motor. There is not one person on this list that can tell me that IM can't do better with the resources they have. It is not that they can't do better. It is they do not care to do better. They are not interested in doing better because the N-Scale community is not demanding they do better.

[Catt]

In spite of Mr. Banna's ranting and raving this N scaler will wait till the locos are here to pass judgement.Concidering the alterations he is doing to a KATO unit I would think the supposed limitations of the IM unit would just be another challenge for him.

[6axlepwr]

In spite of Mr. Banna's ranting and raving this N scaler will wait till the locos are here to pass judgement.Concidering the alterations he is doing to a KATO unit I would think the supposed limitations of the IM unit would just be another challenge for him.

Oh it is and I hope to be getting a TM shell to work on. It does not make me like what IM did to the TM though.

My ranting and raving is because I feel N-Scale is treated so poorly by companies that show they can do better and have done better. The lack of attention is my rant. I do not think N-Scale will ever get the attention it should simply because the community is not demanding it like the HO community did. I indirectly helped pioneer some of that. Again, I am not asking for N-Scale to be just like HO, I am asking that the manufacturers put the same amount of effort and thought into producing their N-Scale line of models as they do their treasured HO line. Maybe N-Scale will then be a treasured scale.

You put out some fine kits. When you do your designs, do you just sit back and say, Oh that is good enough for the masses or do you put your best effort into the design because you care?

[tehachapifan]

Someone needs to explain to me the replies that say the SD40-2 has been widely ignored by the manufacturers. Seems to me the Kato offerings were all fantastic....and better with each release (save for the controversial drive upgrade...which I don't have on any of mine to compare). Why would someone else even need to make them?

[ljudice]

BTW, one of my clients is one of the bigger model RR shops around and I am told that the Athearn HO locos are something of a disaster, arriving with broken parts and wavy handrails - entire runs being rejected by customers and sent back.

No personal experience, the stuff I've looked at in HO - including the Intermountain GEVO's all looked fine to me.

My point is that the manufacturers listen to dealers and they are telling them to stop making such overly delicate models.

[ljudice]

Someone needs to explain to me the replies that say the SD40-2 has been widely ignored by the manufacturers. Seems to me the Kato offerings were all fantastic....and better with each release (save for the controversial drive upgrade...which I don't have on any of mine to compare). Why would someone else even need to make them?

I think the complaint is that they have chosen the "wrong" roadnames or not made enough specifically accurate phases or whatever.

[soo]

  The last time I checked the RailWire store is running out pitchforks,,, flamming spears,,, and hot boiling oil.

  I can say that I can wade through all the comments, maybe watch reviews on you tube when they hit the shelves. Because there is nothing in the 1st run that interests me. The only colors I want to see are light gray/red and black/orange. Also cp action red with large pacman. Like I said I can wait and make my own decision based on research.

  Maybe this announcement while prod other manufactures to follow suit and release the -2 also.

  Out, Wyatt

[Scottl]

Someone needs to explain to me the replies that say the SD40-2 has been widely ignored by the manufacturers. Seems to me the Kato offerings were all fantastic....and better with each release (save for the controversial drive upgrade...which I don't have on any of mine to compare). Why would someone else even need to make them?

Clearly IM sees an opportunity in making this model.  Without knowing how it will be executed, we don't know how it will compare to Kato.  Kato is my hands down favorite manufacturer, but the North American market is not their primary focus and they have produced limited runs and variations of the SD40-2.   This has left a window that IM sees worthy of investing in.  I would think IM will seek to do variants of this model.  For example, apparently Conrail units had flexcoil trucks.  Well, maybe that is coming in subsequent runs, and requires initial tooling and sales to justify.  High noses, etc.  IM is a company that has a track record doing this.  We should reasonably be excited by the prospect, as it will serve a diversity of interests.

My point is, IM has a track record of putting out variants of tooling, which generally puts them in a different category from Kato and Atlas where one shell is often the norm.  It is a development that will serve n scale well in my view, and should be welcomed.  If the product turns out to be less than well executed, then criticize away.  But now, it all rings rather hollow and open letters telling IM to not produce these models are uncalled for in my view.

I will say, I own a Rio Grande tunnel motor, and I looked at it closely last night.  It has run well, ran well with a 9V battery last night after years of inactivity, and the detail is model-specific and excellent.  The handrails are delicate and tend to come off, but they are also some of the finest I have seen.  If the SD40-2 models have these characteristics, I think the modelling community should be pleased to have this "competition" for Kato. 

[6axlepwr]

BTW, one of my clients is one of the bigger model RR shops around and I am told that the Athearn HO locos are something of a disaster, arriving with broken parts and wavy handrails - entire runs being rejected by customers and sent back.

No personal experience, the stuff I've looked at in HO - including the Intermountain GEVO's all looked fine to me.

My point is that the manufacturers listen to dealers and they are telling them to stop making such overly delicate models.

That is a problem with quality control. Not the model design. Also, Athearn has taken it upon themselves that they are building the model so you do not have to. That is not an exact quote, but very close.

I do not need nor do I want the manufacturer to build the model for me. I just want a well executed model that I can do with as I want. I want a smooth running mechanism (ala Kato). I want the shell to have all its parts where they are supposed to be and done with precision machining and I want depth in the truck side frames and fuel tank.  Everything else I can add. Again, Atlas is doing a great job with their new locomotive designs. Even the fans have improved. They do not put on wire grabs or lift rings or road specific details. Their locomotives look great. A an N-Scaler, that is all I ask from a manufacturer. Take the time to do it right and not put out a carved piece of soap. Engineer the project like you have a stake in it not just as an after thought. They do not have to add all the dodads.

[Denver Road Doug]

Someone needs to explain to me the replies that say the SD40-2 has been widely ignored by the manufacturers. Seems to me the Kato offerings were all fantastic....and better with each release (save for the controversial drive upgrade...which I don't have on any of mine to compare). Why would someone else even need to make them?

Well, the biggest problem is that Kato does a handful of roadnames every few-to-six years.  There have just been an ASTOUNDING number of SD40-2's on the rails over the years (41 years now and counting) and hundreds of paint schemes.    Almost 4,000 produced by EMD and it's affiliates, BNSF had almost a thousand at merger day....rrpicturearchives.net alone has over 160,000 photos JUST OF SD40-2's,  Almost assuredly unlike any other locomotive in history.   Throw in the variety of "phases" and such and...well....the risk probably needs to be spread out over a few companies if we want to see the "third tier"  schemes.

Kato *has* improved the situation a little over the past 7-8 years, but often even a new release is the same roadname.  (don't get me wrong...not complaining...I model BNSF!!!    )   And overall it would seem to be one of maybe only a few locomotives that can support multiple (even 3 or 4) manufacturers in n-scale.  (HO, with 3x or 4x the market, enjoys this on almost every model.)   I'm afraid I directed some down the path we're on now of bashing Intermountain, but frankly (no pun intended) I'm happy Intermountain is in the game.   I think Kato, Intermountain, and FVM can all play on this field, and do quite well.   And maybe, just maybe, I'll get my MKT SD40-2's. (MKT is a side-project obviously since BNSF and MKT didn't coexist.)   

[unittrain]

I agree with Brian some and others also there is room for some concern and yet on the other hand I want to think that IM will fix past mistakes we will have to see. But the model needs to atleast be accurate like Robbman said some of roof details they incorrectly placed that he has told them about have fallen on deaf ears, these are basic things that should be correct given the amount of money these units command. I have an IM F3 and it is awesome I plan on getting a B&O F7A and B when they come out I think I will just have to add the capital dome on the nose cause the pics don't show it but other than that I feel they will be pretty good.