New auto-coupling air hoses available in N scale.

[robert3985]

The #1023 coupler was patented in September 1969, and the Kadee cars debuted with Kadee couplers in 1972.  The sliding doors design also was patented before the models debuted.  Kadee added the option a few years later of buying the cars with Rapido-equipped Bettendorf trucks and add-on magnets that the consumer had to glue on the sides.  These models had yellow paper inserts in the box.  Kadee abandoned the Rapido-equipped cars after a couple of years.

There are many more injection-molded N scale manufacturers today than there were in 1972.  It would be a lot harder to convince them all to switch to a different standard.  Any new coupler would have to be able to interface with the MTL couplers in order to be viable.  The NZT coupler will, which is a huge plus.  You guys are thinking of this from an individual preference standpoint.  Manufacturers don't have that luxury.

Let's see....Kadee developed an HOn3 coupler they decided to introduce as an N-scale coupler, and there was NO COMPATIBILITY with the Rapido design.  None.  Zip.  Nada.  So...I guess manufacturer's DO have the luxury of introducing whatever design they think will sell, even if it isn't compatible with any pre-existing products.

N-scalers compensated by making "transistion cars" with an MT coupler on one end and a Rapido on the other, so cars with both incompatible couplers could be run in the same train, on the same layout, or the same modular get-together.  Incompatibility wasn't a huge problem, and it still isn't.

I am positive that an N-scale dummy coupler which was built to prototype dimensions and appearance would sell pretty well amongst the "Fringers".  Accidently, prototype dimensioned dummy couplers (oops...can I call an inanimate object "dummy"?????  ) will couple up with Micro Trains Z-scale couplers, but not N-scale couplers. 

Here's proof:


There's a definite market for scale sized, prototype dimensioned couplers which function only to keep things coupled up (no automatic coupling) with several different shanks or coupler boxes.  These would serve well on motive power that was always coupled up and on unit trains which never get switched except as a total train, or on through freights or non-switched passenger consists.

It's late and my brain is starting to tick over...here are some thoughts about a "different", simple coupler.

Easy uncoupling COULD be achieved for the "giant toothpick" crowd by designing the knuckle's mating surfaces and mounting box so that there was enough play to be able to push on one coupler and have it slip below the other, then when they were apart, the lower coupler would come back up to the standard height automatically.   Appearance would still be totally prototypical, and "giant toothpick" uncoupling would be possible. 

However, automatic coupling wouldn't be possible.  Coupling would require an operator to push down on one coupler and let it slip up into the coupler of the other car....hmmmmm....my rusty brain gears are starting to turn a little faster....

Two versions could be made, with the main difference being the mechanicals inside the coupler box.  One would not offer "giant toothpick" anything, and the other would allow toothpick uncoupling and coupling.  Different coupler boxes for different cars and applications, but the same coupler basically...just like prototypical (with a few exceptions).

Nonetheless, although I am sure that these would not overtake MT's or any other automatic couplers, there is a definite niche for them, and not a whole lot of development to get them designed.

As if I don't already have enough projects to do!   

[bbussey]

Let's see....Kadee developed an HOn3 coupler they decided to introduce as an N-scale coupler, and there was NO COMPATIBILITY with the Rapido design.  None.  Zip.  Nada.  So...I guess manufacturer's DO have the luxury of introducing whatever design they think will sell, even if it isn't compatible with any pre-existing products...

N-scalers compensated by making "transistion cars" with an MT coupler on one end and a Rapido on the other, so cars with both incompatible couplers could be run in the same train, on the same layout, or the same modular get-together.  Incompatibility wasn't a huge problem, and it still isn't.

I am positive that an N-scale dummy coupler which was built to prototype dimensions and appearance would sell pretty well amongst the "Fringers".  Accidently, prototype dimensioned dummy couplers (oops...can I call an inanimate object "dummy"?????  ) will couple up with Micro Trains Z-scale couplers, but not N-scale couplers. 

Nonetheless, although I am sure that these would not overtake MT's or any other automatic couplers, there is a definite niche for them, and not a whole lot of development to get them designed...

You conveniently omitted that Kadee also introduced coupler conversions for every existing N scale model at the time and continued to do so for the next few decades until the other manufacturers migrated to compatible customers.  So, even with a far superior solution to the status quo, the company felt it necessary to provide the tools to convert all existing equipment on the market to make their product viable — and it still took 40 years for it to become the new status quo.  No one said anything about manufacturers being restricted from releasing new product designs.  What was said is that it would be difficult to introduce  a product and have it become the standard.

"Niche" is the operative word in your post.  There are a lot of niche items that would have appeal with various fringe groups of N scale modelers.  But from a manufacturer's standpoint, especially in the current environment, the goal is to introduce products that have wider appeal.

Some notable milestones for N scale equipment:

• Kadee coupler introduced (1972).  Accumate coupler introduced (2004).  32 years.
  
• MTL closed diesel pilot conversions introduced (1983).  Kato closed pilot diesel introduced (1991).  8 years.
  
• First non-caboose freight car with body-mounted knuckle couplers and scale ride height (2009).  First year that every major manufacturer had introduced multiple new models with body-mounted knuckle couplers and scale ride height (2013).  4 years.
  
• First freight car with fine-scale metal wheels (2010).  First year that every major manufacturer has introduced a freight car with fine-scale metal wheels (still waiting).

[6axlepwr]

You have the option to equip your rolling stock with whatever you deem fit.  But to expect the manufacturers en masse to satisify a fringe market request is unreasonable,

And that is why there is a need for a "fringe" manufacturer  .

I know that what I am working on will excite a VERY small niche fringe market. All I am looking for is to sell enough to keep the product development going. So even though I am just starting out, haven't sold a thing or for that matte even marketed anything yet, I am proud to consider myself the first FRINGE MANUFACTURER! Like standing on that slippery slope covered in ice. I fell down it a long time ago with no way of climbing back up.

The other issue I have with N-Scale coupler technology today is the awful looking coupler boxes that stick out the front of the pilot plates. That is a cloogy and unnecessary setup. But I have remedied that as well, except on the C630. There is something wrong with that setup that just does not allow anything prototypical to be built around it  . But I am working on it. The EMD's were easy. It is why I like EMD models so much. They are so easy to work on.

[bbussey]

Nothing wrong with being a fringe manufacturer.  There is a need and it should be filled.  Where I disagree is that the mainstream manufacturers should focus on items that would appeal only to a fringe segment, without any compelling functional advantage to the mainstream.  Whether one likes the design or not, it's difficult to argue against the Kadee #1023 coupler being functionally and aestetically superior to the Rapido coupler.  Yet it still took 30 years to officially become the N scale standard.  And, it would be difficult to develop a new coupler that is both functionally and aestetically superior to the MTL #1015.  Not impossible, but difficult.  Because of that, it would be extremely difficult to sway the manufacturers to move off the MTL and MTL-compatible couplers.

[6axlepwr]

That is definitely sound reasoning and most likely how it will stay.

[Scottl]

  are men of change, so long as they don't have to change.  LOL

[robert3985]

You conveniently omitted that Kadee also introduced coupler conversions for every existing N scale model at the time and continued to do so for the next few decades until the other manufacturers migrated to compatible customers.  So, even with a far superior solution to the status quo, the company felt it necessary to provide the tools to convert all existing equipment on the market to make their product viable — and it still took 40 years for it to become the new status quo.  No one said anything about manufacturers being restricted from releasing new product designs.  What was said is that it would be difficult to introduce  a product and have it become the standard.

Hmmmm...I didn't "conveniently" omit including Kadee/MT's product support.  It's got nothing to do with the fact that their couplers were totally incompatible (except for the mounting protocol) with Rapido couplers.  FACT: They introduced a new product, totally incompatible with anything, with defies your assertion that manufacturers don't have the "luxury" of introducing a non-compatible product.  How they did it is irrelevant.  Providing coupler conversions for everything didn't happen overnight, and it was very smart marketing and customer support on Kadee/MT's part, but only illustrates a bit of their strategy supporting the fact they introduced a brand new incompatible product.  Also, MT's have been the status quo since at least the turn of the century.  They were for me in the late 80's and most of my N-scale buddies too, so it actually hasn't taken anywhere near 40 years for that to finally happen.

"Niche" is the operative word in your post.  There are a lot of niche items that would have appeal with various fringe groups of N scale modelers.  But from a manufacturer's standpoint, especially in the current environment, the goal is to introduce products that have wider appeal.

Something wrong with "niche"? That was the point of my post.  MT introduced a non-compatible product so fringe modelers (those who wanted a better looking/operating coupler) could buy it, install it and use it.  It was definitely designed for a "niche" market when it was introduced.  Maybe it's the goal for most (but not all)  manufacturers to introduce products that have a wider appeal, but compatibility with other products is not absolutely necessary for those new, widely appealing products to catch on, as the example of Kadee/Micro Trains so graphically shows us.  Also, I can think of several products that would qualify as appealing to fringers which are expensive and for use only by a certain cross-section of modelers who have the bucks and space to utilize them...in particular the Walthers DCC turntable and modern roundhouse models.  These items will never be on a majority of N-scale modeler's layouts.  If Walthers would have complied with your assertions that manufacturers, especially in the present environment, meet a goal of wide appeal, the whole investment into producing a high quality, injection molded, working modern turntable would have never happened.  Although I am sure that there is an okay profit margin with these models, overall company profits are probably not affected much by them, since volume of sales will obviously be low. I'd say they qualify as a high-end product, with limited appeal...a "niche" product.  This line of thought implies that it's the larger manufacturers who are most easily able to appeal to the fringers and niche markets since company profits are generated by products they're already producing for wide appeal.  To totally ignore the fringers and niche markets only lessens a large company's profits and ignores a smaller, but important part of their customer base.

[bbussey]

Hmmmm...I didn't "conveniently" omit including Kadee/MT's product support.  It's got nothing to do with the fact that their couplers were totally incompatible (except for the mounting protocol) with Rapido couplers.  FACT: They introduced a new product, totally incompatible with anything, with defies your assertion that manufacturers don't have the "luxury" of introducing a non-compatible product.  How they did it is irrelevant.  Providing coupler conversions for everything didn't happen overnight, and it was very smart marketing and customer support on Kadee/MT's part, but only illustrates a bit of their strategy supporting the fact they introduced a brand new incompatible product.  Also, MT's have been the status quo since at least the turn of the century.  They were for me in the late 80's and most of my N-scale buddies too, so it actually hasn't taken anywhere near 40 years for that to finally happen.

This isn't over with?  And you're continuing to make assertions that I've already refuted.

Once again — I never said manufacturers are restricted from releasing any product.

Yes, Kadee did roll out the conversions with the couplers, so in essence it was "overnight".  And yes, it was part of the strategy the company realized it had to implement in introducing a product "incompatible" with the status-quo.

Yes, the couplers were the de-facto standard by the late 1980s.  But they didn't officially become "the standard" until the other manufacturers recognized it — by ether OEM'ing MTL couplers or introducing MTL-compatible couplers on their own products.  That started with the introduction of the AccuMate coupler on Atlas equipment in 2004.  Every motive power product released prior to that, from every manufacturer, had Rapido couplers.  Those are the facts.  So yeah, it did take 40 years.  For decades I've pushed and/or led the industry to be more progressive, as I've personally known the current principals of all the major manufacturers for decades.  And I've personally been Rapido-free since the late 1970s.  But even with those givens, ESM didn't switch to MTL couplers on all releases until 2000.  Just because MTLs became your personal standard in the 1980s doesn't mean it was that way for the industry, or the consumer base at large. 

Something wrong with "niche"? That was the point of my post.  MT introduced a non-compatible product so fringe modelers (those who wanted a better looking/operating coupler) could buy it, install it and use it.  It was definitely designed for a "niche" market when it was introduced.  Maybe it's the goal for most (but not all)  manufacturers to introduce products that have a wider appeal, but compatibility with other products is not absolutely necessary for those new, widely appealing products to catch on, as the example of Kadee/Micro Trains so graphically shows us.  Also, I can think of several products that would qualify as appealing to fringers which are expensive and for use only by a certain cross-section of modelers who have the bucks and space to utilize them...in particular the Walthers DCC turntable and modern roundhouse models.  These items will never be on a majority of N-scale modeler's layouts.  If Walthers would have complied with your assertions that manufacturers, especially in the present environment, meet a goal of wide appeal, the whole investment into producing a high quality, injection molded, working modern turntable would have never happened.  Although I am sure that there is an okay profit margin with these models, overall company profits are probably not affected much by them, since volume of sales will obviously be low. I'd say they qualify as a high-end product, with limited appeal...a "niche" product.  This line of thought implies that it's the larger manufacturers who are most easily able to appeal to the fringers and niche markets since company profits are generated by products they're already producing for wide appeal.  To totally ignore the fringers and niche markets only lessens a large company's profits and ignores a smaller, but important part of their customer base.

No, it wasn't.  The intent from the beginning was to introduce a more reliable more functional more realistic coupler than the Rapido.  Just as Atlas revolutionized motive power design with the split frame no-wires mechanism of the RS-3 in 1983.  It was radically different, but it wasn't a niche and it's now the standard.

You're totally missing my point.  There is nothing wrong with a "niche" product.  But there's a difference in designing a product that is targeted toward the general consumer base as opposed to one targeted toward a very specific subset of that base.  There's also a difference in introducing a product that fills a void, regardless of how intricate it is, and one that directly competes with an established status-quo.  The Walthers turntable was not and is not a niche product.  It's an accessory and it is not a necessity in participating in the hobby, so your analogy is flawed.  Couplers are a necessity to participate.  Huge difference.  Track is a necessity.  Atlas captured the market with its Code 80 in the 1960s, and sought to up-end the status-quo it set by introducing the Code 55 line.  This is not a fringe product, as the general consumer base is the targeted audience.  At some point, Code 80 will fade away.  Code 55 is the de-facto standard now.  But it takes years, sometimes decades, to firmly and officially establish such a change.

As a rule, mainstream manufacturers do not engage in fringe products.  The risk far outweighs the reward and there's not enough profit in it.  It's hard enough generating profit from conventional products.  But that doesn't stop entrepreneurs, who have a far lower cost overhead to be concerned about, from developing niche products.

[havingfuntoo]

And that is why there is a need for a "fringe" manufacturer  .

 I am proud to consider myself the first FRINGE MANUFACTURER!

Cool .... I want a black one that just covers my eyes for every day, and a blonde one that sweeps accross my the front of my face suitable for hippie gatherings (can it come wiith a rainbow tie please)

[peteski]

I have to smile seeing all this sparring about Kadee/MTL knuckle and their clones being the standard N scale couplers since late 80s, because when looking at the big picture, Rapidos are still the standard coupler worldwide.  Seems that the entire US-prototype modelers crowd is one big fringe group. 

[VonRyan]

I have to smile seeing all this sparring about Kadee/MTL knuckle and their clones being the standard N scale couplers since late 80s, because when looking at the big picture, Rapidos are still the standard coupler worldwide.  Seems that the entire US-prototype modelers crowd is one big fringe group. 

+1

I have to agree with this, being 50% UK (GWR) modeller and 50% US (PRR) modeler.


-Cody F.

[Philip H]

I have to smile seeing all this sparring about Kadee/MTL knuckle and their clones being the standard N scale couplers since late 80s, because when looking at the big picture, Rapidos are still the standard coupler worldwide.  Seems that the entire US-prototype modelers crowd is one big fringe group. 

This is even more amusing to me since a lot of European stuff still uses, essentially, hook and link couplers which no one has ever modeled in N scale . . . .

[ednadolski]

Seems that the entire US-prototype modelers crowd is one big fringe group. 

It probably would not be too hard to find some folks who would say that all of N-scale is one big fringe group..... 

Ed

[VonRyan]

This is even more amusing to me since a lot of European stuff still uses, essentially, hook and link couplers which no one has ever modeled in N scale . . . .

It has, but usually it is etches and fine chain. Mostly relegated to those doing 2mm Finescale modelling.


-Cody F.