Clejan spine flats

[sirenwerks]

Does anyone know when Trailer Train stopped running the Clejan cars?  I'm hoping someone with a 1967 ORER can confirm they were still in revenue service at that point, or not (and when they left TT's roster).  If so, does anyone know where they were running -- nationwide or in some sort of city-to-city captive service?

On a side note, would anyone know if these might have had a second life with the circus?  If I can't fit them into regular freights, I'm thinking they might have been a good selection for circus trains.  At least in my mind...

[ljudice]

Didn't SP use them as wheel flatcars?

[johnhale]

NH was the largest purchaser of Clejan cars (202 by 1957). By 1965, NH had retired all of them (although they sat in a yard until 1980 in Reading, PA) in favor of 85' GA flatcars with ACF hitches.

Trailer-Train was established in March of 1956 and by 1961 had standardized on ACF hitches over Clejan due to the lower manpower requirements. How long Clejan cars operated with Trailer-train markings is a good question.

[sirenwerks]

Ya' got me.  I'm most interested in their life as revenue generators, as in hauling trailers; not so much in house service (except for any Hill Lines).  I had heard somewhere that the NP had these cars too but have found no record of that yet.

I did find this posted by Peter Harris of NSK on the Trainboard:

...the [SP] F-50-17 cars were built in 1957.

SP decided to end the use of the Clejan system in 1960, so in 1961 the cars were lengthened to 85' for use in the Piggy-Box service. The maximum length of trailers was increased by Congress from 35' to 40' in 1958, so this was an additional reason for the alterations. The cars were lengthened again from 85' to 89' in March 1974 and equipped to have bi- and tri-level autoracks.

The 200 New Haven cars were built in 1956 and were in service for a similar length of time before 4 were purchased by the SP in 1961. The other 196 cars appear to have remained in service at the NH until 1962.

The similar 50 Erie and 50 KCS cars were built in 1956 and I have been unable to determine the last use of these cars, but it is probable that they went out of service in 1962-3, at the end of the GATX pool of Clejan cars.

The cars were used on the New England - Chicago via NYNH&H; Los Angeles - San Francisco - Portland - Seattle - Tacoma via NP and Chicago - Oakland via RI-D&RGW intermodal routes.

I've found a little bit about a fully-decked version of the Clejan car, one that did not require use of the Clejan loading system.  FWICF, the 2,300+ cars built by General American were similar in design to the GA-built Clejan cars, but built in the mid-60s, after the Clejan cars may have been off the rails.  I am stymied by the building of 85' cars in the mid-60s, as I thought 89-foot was becoming the standard at that point but, for me, these might be of more interest, especially if they're a simple mod of the NSK kits and offer a unique enough model from what's available to warrant the work.  I just can't find much on them.  Anyone know where to go for more info on the G85/85a prototypes?

[johnhale]

http://newhavenrailroad1959.webs.com/2009nhrhtamodelclinic.htm about 3/4 of the way down the presentation is a diagram of the G-85.

John

[magi46]

Thanks John for the link.

Dan

[Hornwrecker]

I've been thinking or ordering one of these.  Now, I'm sure. 

Does anyone make NH decals for it (or any decals), or is it one of those cut and paste from various sheets kind of things?

[Robbman]

FWICF, the 2,300+ cars built by General American were similar in design to the GA-built Clejan cars, but built in the mid-60s, after the Clejan cars may have been off the rails.  I am stymied by the building of 85' cars in the mid-60s, as I thought 89-foot was becoming the standard at that point but...

GATC built G85s from 1959-1965, they could originally handle both Clejan and standard trailers.   GATC tried to form a pool similar to TTX, but after a year, their cars were folded into TTX (GTTX).  TTX continued ordering G85/G85a unitl 89' become the defacto standard (around 1965)

[nkalanaga]

Sirenwerks:  Thank you!  That explains why I don't remember seeing the NPs in Pasco in the late 60s and early 70s.  They were never run there as Clejan cars, and by that time simply looked like the other GATC cars. 

The old Con-Cor and older Arnold Rapido cars seem to have been based on GATC cars, although the Arnold cars are only about 83 ft long, and CC's are well over 90.  I have both, and actually prefer the Arnold.  They'll carry two 40 ft trailers, and don't look quite as silly on model curves.

[JoeD]

http://www.nscalekits.co.uk/clejan_spine.html

I did a couple of these in Brass in Z scale several years ago for a customer and they look pretty interesting next to regular flats.  For the SP modeler a line of these backed up to a PMT dock would be very cool looking.

Joe

[sirenwerks]

Sirenwerks:  Thank you!  That explains why I don't remember seeing the NPs in Pasco in the late 60s and early 70s.  They were never run there as Clejan cars, and by that time simply looked like the other GATC cars. 

I tried confirming the NP cars were GATC cars, but the drawing available on the NPRHS site is so degraded it's worthless.  I shouted out to the Yahoo NP list for more information, so hopefully I'll gain some insight, maybe even facts, about what the deal is with the NP cars.  I'll have to try to get to my NP color guide tonight too, to sate my burning curiosity, if I can figure out which box it is in... Maybe it has something on the line's 85-footers.  I know the NP's 89-footers were ACF-built though.

[nkalanaga]

The picture in the "Color Guide" is from below track level, looking up, and doesn't show much more than the trucks and side sills. 

The 65600 series of 89 ft flats seem to have been COFC only.  The "Color Guide" shows one with three 20 ft containers, and rrpicturearchives.com has two photos of the in revenue service, one in 1976, empty, with container pedestals but no hitches, and one in the early 80s carrying poles.  Did the NP ever have a truly "modern" TOFC car, or did they stick with 50 ft cars and Trailer Train to the merger?   

[sirenwerks]

I managed to find my NPCG last night too and the caption of the photo of the 85-footer states it was manufactured by General American.  The narrative continues to state that it had Clejan hardware, but it looks more like a G85; so the writer may have glossed over the fact that it also accepted non-Clejan equipped pigs.  Yes, it's hard to tell from the angle of the photo, but the car definitely lacks the tell-tale handrails of the Clejan cars and does not appear to have a skeleton frame construction.

Additionally, I poked around the SP Freight Car Page and found this description of the Espee's Clejan cars, classified as SP-50-17:

These 79'-6" flat cars were built in 1957 by SP shops. These cars were the Clejan type early TOFC flat cars. They featured full length side handrails and skeleton frames. ...These cars had a brief career. At some point they were lengthened to 85' and then to 89'. Autoracks were added in the early 1960's.

I rubbed my eyes a bit about the length and went back to the NH site John recommended and found that the first Clejan cars were actually 75-footers and the later, more abundantly produced version were 79'6" in length.  Ergo, the NP cars are either not original Clejan cars or were lengthened older cars, which probably meant they went both ways in terms of loading.  I'm still waiting for a knowledgeable response on the Yahoo! NP site.

Unfortunately, the difference in length between the Clejan and G85 means the NSK kit will not be a starting point and this will have to be a complete scratchbuild.  But such a challenge can always be an opportunity...

[nkalanaga]

I agree that the NPCG picture seems to show a full-deck car.  A skeleton car such as the SP's would allow a lot more light on the trucks.  The SP cars I found pictures of had open-grid decks for the tractors to drive on during loading, but the NP car seems to be solid.

[sirenwerks]

I agree that the NPCG picture seems to show a full-deck car.  A skeleton car such as the SP's would allow a lot more light on the trucks.  The SP cars I found pictures of had open-grid decks for the tractors to drive on during loading, but the NP car seems to be solid.

I'm putting the NP cars on my to do list, if I can find readable drawings.  I reached out to GATX for historical materials.  Maybe that will bear fruit?  I'm surprised no one on the NP Yahoo! site's chirped up yet.