How much IS the right amount?

[rogergperkins]

 
I think back to when I started in n-scale about 1973-74 and had the good fortune to join a club in Urbana-Champaign, IL.  I had no room for a home layout, so this was an excellent place to learn about n-scale.
Like many other modellers I have met over the years, I started thinking BIG, I mean 9 to 12 stall roundhouse BIG!  I still have that first Heljan round house, now 6 stalls, on my current layout.

I learned way back then, 1976, that a 9 or 12 stall roundhouse looks out of place on a 3x8' layout. 

All these memories of TOO MUCH came back to me this past week end after attending a railroad show and looking at layouts.  N-Trak can handle bigger efforts, IMHO, than a home layout. 

In the 1970's, I innocently fell into the trap of assembling a lot of Heljan kits, brewery, etc.  Eventually, I gave them all to a friend who was modelling 1:87.

My point is that I hope some one reads this and thinks again about the huge industry they are dreaming of adding to their home layout and considers something that fits the overall size and allow them to have some "open space." [In stead of open spaces in their budget/billfold.]  Happy modelling!!

[ljudice]

I agree - I've been going through this exact thought process and have been scaling back and putting more space into open space.

This is especially true for modern era modelers where everything not absolutely needed for operation is usually removed - towers, extra unused track, etc....   But the space they occupied is still there (abandoned second mainlines,  etc..)

[w neal]

I was at Galesburg too and gave the N trak layout a quick looking over. I'm glad that I have moved beyond it. I do not mean to bash N trak. N trak is a great way to experience the hobby, especially for a beginner. Rather, it was a stepping stone for other ways to model. (P.S. God bless the N trakers for supporting the show!!!)

It does indeed seem that less is more. Small layouts are wonderful things, especially when they are not overcrowded. When I built my larger home layout, I was reminded of the Reid brother's concept of "spaciousness". Having more room allowed me to expand the "scenery only" areas. I never even considered packing in more track. The result, hopefully, has been more spaciousness. After all, this is N scale. Our great advantage is "the big picture" - see Jim Reising's latest efforts. I find a lot of inspiration in the now defunct Monon layout by Lance Mindheim as well. I think we are all wise to follow this recent trend. It makes our scale really shine.

[Pomperaugrr]

I do agree that trying to cram too much onto a small home layout can detract from a layout's appearance.   As stated, a 12 stall roundhouse on a 3' x 8' layout is probably too much, unless it is an operating diorama.  This is all relative though.  Industry size can vary depending upon the size of the home layout and the purpose it is built.

The N scale Housatonic RR that I am currently building does have some open space, but I am also trying to replicate the operations of this prototype Conn. and Mass. short line.  I could have single track running through lots of woods and along the Housatonic River, but I also like operations.  I am therefore building in scenic breaks between switching areas.  To me, large industries are part of the scenery, just like trees.  I do admire layouts like the Monon and Jim Rising's incredible layout, with all of the open space.  Those layouts depict a certain type of railroading in a certain location.  Mine focuses on serving all or most of the customers served by the HRRC.  I am hoping to achieve a balance in open running and switching.

The layout is a shelf layout running 11' x 13' x 21' x 6', with a future expansion into a 6' x 10' closet.  This is not a small layout, so large industries seem to fit the space.  The Kimberly Clark plant is 24" x 44" overall, and despite being compressed, holds the same number of cars as the prototype.  This industry would look ridiculous on a 3' x 8' layout.  I've posted these before, but they are being used again to illustrate my view.



Here are three industries (Stratas Foods, Neeltran and Kimberly Clark) , representing part of one town, along a 13' long wall: 



Keep in mind the purpose for building the layout and try to balance industries with the space available.

Eric

[rogergperkins]

Eric, thanks for sharing the photos and comments.  I find your layout very interesting in regard to size of industry and open space.  I did not read enough of your blog to learn what you plan or have as a goal for scenery in open spaces.

[Bsklarski]

3 inches is all you need either side of the track. Anything more, you are wasting space 

[Pomperaugrr]

Eric, thanks for sharing the photos and comments.  I find your layout very interesting in regard to size of industry and open space.  I did not read enough of your blog to learn what you plan or have as a goal for scenery in open spaces.

Roger, This was a great thread for discussion.  There are a lot of viewpoints and approaches that all have their merits.

I wrestled with what I really wanted out of this layout.  I have done freelanced layouts with a lot of open, natural scenery.  This time out, I wanted to replicate actual customers and train operations.  The real Housatonic RR only has 5 GP-35's and an RS3-M in their whole roster, with about 165 miles of track.  It is close to my home, so it was a good fit for me.  The scenic breaks on my layout are are small areas.  Since I am running 35 to 45 car trains, the scenic areas are used just to visually separate towns.  The trains still extend into adjoining town areas, so I provided for continuous running.  When I go from one town to the next, the trains will cover a 3.5 scale mile long loop and go to the next switching area. 

Most of the "continuous running loop" track is along the backdrop and is mostly hidden or disguised by scenery or large buildings.  The Kimberly Clark plant has the continuous run track and part of a passing siding passing through it.



Here is an older example of a scenic area (fictional steel trestle) to the left of the switching areas.




It really is about finding a good balance.  I am turned off by spaghetti bowl layouts, even if the modeling is top notch.  I have seen amazing small and micro layouts that are big on detail, but do not feel crowded.  I love open scenic areas with sweeping curves, and I like switching. Each layout will have its own personality.  As you and the other posters have stated, too much is too much.  It just depends on space available and purpose of the layout.

Here's a brief video showing a train passing through the areas in the above photos.
Not a valid youtube URLEric

[Bsklarski]

I think you said it very well Eric,  If you are trying to really capture the feel of a local area or something, then by all means, increase the scenery. If you are modeling UP from LA to Chicago, then well you better plan on narrow rights of way. I guess it all depends on the layout. I still like  your Eric, any recent overall shots?

[Pomperaugrr]

Thanks Brian.  Unfortunately, I do not have any new overall shots.  I need to clean off an accumulation of tools and supplies, so I can take something recent.  There has been some progress, but not that much.  I have been mocking up both Becton Dickenson and Specialty Minerals, in Canaan.   I also don't want to hijack Roger's great thread.  I am looking forward to some further discussion.

When I look at layouts like Lee's, I am impressed by the amount of operations and scenery balanced through out.  If I lived out west, I would love to model heavy double mainline traffic involving through trains, like Jim Rising's masterpiece.  Dave Vollmer's smaller layouts also seem to balance the elements well.  There are so many outstanding, "balanced" layouts by long time Railwire members, I am always getting inspired and re-defining what I want my layout to look like.  I wish I could mention them all, but there are so many exhibited here and elsewhere, I am afraid to leave anyone out.

I really think Roger nailed it in the last paragraph of his original post:

My point is that I hope some one reads this and thinks again about the huge industry they are dreaming of adding to their home layout and considers something that fits the overall size and allow them to have some "open space." [In stead of open spaces in their budget/billfold.]  Happy modelling!!

Eric

[rogergperkins]

The concept of having open space between villages, towns, and cities has been my goal for my home layout which is now very compressed to what it was before we retired and move where I have only about 12x13' for layout. Previously, I had the whole basement and was using only 28'x18'.

I find as well over the 35 years of modelling that my enjoyment of the layout shifts from one aspect to another.  The DCC BLI E-6's with sound has drawn me to passenger service activity.  I am now re-evaluating whether I could redo track and have passenger trains pass through a Union Station instead of back in or come in on stub sidings.  With 7 passenger trains on the layout, I am experiencing a space and logistics dilemna.   

[Freight Train]

This is an interesting & great reading thread!! 
I'm a firm believer of space. Cramming too many structures large or small can swallow up a layout in some aspects. This is more apparent on smaller type layouts then larger ones. That given space use on a smaller layout can make it look larger than it actually is and the term "less is more" becomes very beneficial when used here.

[Pomperaugrr]

This is an interesting & great reading thread!! 
I'm a firm believer of space. Cramming too many structures large or small can swallow up a layout in some aspects. This is more apparent on smaller type layouts then larger ones. That given space use on a smaller layout can make it look larger than it actually is and the term "less is more" becomes very beneficial when used here.

Minimizing visual clutter and a less is more approach is great advice!  Every modeler needs to find the right ratio of space to structure and track.  Layout size, budget, time available, skill level all come into play and make for some tough choices.  I do have to admit, when I take a good, objective look at the large industries on my layout, they do swallow up a lot of space, and make the layout seem smaller than it is. 

I just had to make a hard choice as to what I wanted, since I will primarily be a solo operator.  There are times I look at the work in progress and picture rolling hills, rivers, etc, that would look great in the space I have.  For now, i am trying to minimize compression of industries.   I was suffering from layout planning paralysis, until I finally made up my mind to go with the larger industries.  My scenic areas will be mostly common wooded areas, that don't attract a lot of attention. 

I take comfort in knowing that when this layout becomes as finished as it will ever get, I'll probably rip it out and start a new one.  If that happens to be after my daughters are finished with college and have moved out of the house, it may involve adding on a penninsula and possibly a lower deck to get the scenic running I sacrificed this time around.

There are some awesome track planners on this forum.  I look forward to this discussion continuing!

Eric

[rogergperkins]

Not much happening on this street; one way I try to minimize for impact!

Separating two rural villages with a river or creek.  This section is only 32" wide and about 11' long.  I devoted the entire space to two rural villages much like ones found in central Illinois.

[Hyperion]

Well there's quite a difference between 'spaghetti bowls' and various other 'crammed' industry/buildings/scenes/whatever layouts and the "huge industry" that Roger refers to in his original post.

While one of the huge strengths of N scale is the ability to effectively model open spaces -- certainly those that are more indicative of much of railroading -- one of the benefits in my opinion is those "huge industries".  Sure, there are a relative handful of basement-empire HO layouts that can truly do justice to the scale of most railroad-served industries, but they're extremely few and far between.  Paper, Steel, Automotive, etc -- can't really be done justice in the space that 99% of HOers have.  Even something as simply as Grain Elevators just look 'off' to me in HO most of the time.

It's really those industries that drive me to N scale.  Sure, the scenery is nice too, and I can appreciate that modeling as much as the next guy.  But I can see great open terrain modeling in HO scale too.  For me, personally, I love those 'big factories' as much as those 'big trains'.  It's call 'cool' stuff to the kid inside of me.

Now if only I could get enough of that open space to separate the big industries I want...

[Specter3]

When you consider most real world railroading is running between things we as railfans would call interesting, we seem to delete all that in our quest for modeling "stuff". For me, who has no real layout, simply a bunch of oNetrak style modules I can put together in the driveway, space is a dream and a reality at the same time. I have built some operatingly interesting modules. But for every one of those I have, I have 4 feet of generic track through the countryside modules as well. Gives the trains some travel time between scenes. Of course it only gets set up a couple times a year but I have three or four on shelves in my dungeon in the crawl space under my house that I work on and play on through the year. I am also a member of an N scale club that has an Ntrak layout that we display at local shows. Ntrak is simply an vessel to display N scale to the public(read kids) and show people what kind of modeling can be done in Normal scale. Even with Ntrak the amount of scenery to track ratio is very high. It really gives the sense of traveling from one place to another. At the shows it is still a vast difference between the Ntrak and the two HO modular railroads that show up as well when you consider the open space modeled. As much as some people want to cram a whole lot of track into a small area to give them something to do, give them another outlet for some modeling such as a club, and they are much more likely to use restraint when planning their home layouts.