Code 55 Peco derailment

[mmagliaro]

If I understand your description, cars derail only when they go through the curved (diverging) route, and this only happens
when they come IN to the points and then go through the diverging route.
I think we need a bit more precise description of where the cars actually derail.   

Can you run a train SLOWLY through it, watching right at trackside, preferably with optivisors unless your eyes are amazing, and can you actually SEE where a wheel lifts up and jumps out of the rails?   
Do you actually SEE a wheel pick the tip of the points and derail, or do the wheels actually jump over a rail later, as they are rolling
through the point rails?  It should be easy to see which it is.

My guess would be that the turnout, or the point rails themselves, are twisted or humped, as has been mentioned.
You won't see anything out of gauge with the NMRA plate.  But as a car rolls over the rails, one rail or the other will just
"drop out from under" a wheel and the wheel will go right over the top of the rail.

Get down there,.. trackside, and find the spot where the wheel actually goes over the rail.  Without that information,
it's very hard to diagnose this.

[haasmarc]

I know you said the turnout was in gauge, but when I was using Peco code 55 turnouts, I had trouble with the curved point rails bending over time and increasing the gauge enough to derail equipment.  I run a lot of heavy cab units and I think the thin point rail just couldn't keep its shape.

Marc

[OHCR 4218]

My N Track club uses Peco code 80 turnouts on almost everything, one issue I have naticed is that the rail tends to pull out of the diverging or normal side where the joiner is up by the frog. this will allow the point to hit just past the notch in the common rail and still look closed. A little crimping on those joiners from time to time keeps them from moving.  I have also seen the rail slightly out of place on the back side of the frog as well as flash in the frog. I don't know if any of these issues are relevent to code 55, but I would imagine they are not too different.

Brandon

[rsn48]

Just a quick response to Bob, this is the second turnout in the same location, I can't remember now why I took out the first one, it was having problems I now know how to solve.  The reason I want to keep up with this is to learn more about turnouts and to have put in a third one.  I have dreams of soon ballasting...lol.

I have some guys coming over for my first open house ever and I'd like to have some solid track work to show them, but more importantly I have lots more track and turnouts to install and I want to get a grip on this problem.

I did find one thing, a "nub" (?) along the rail to simulate a spike (?) seemed to be protruding a bit, so I filed it down and now the engine will go through and not derail but it is still "rough" through the curved turnout.

It is not a curved turnout, though I do have a number currently laid and will be adding more.  I've had other problem turnouts and have slowly solved the problem, hoping to do the same with this one.  I am taking a two day hiatus from turnout derailment solving to finish some feeder wire soldering under the bench work in this area so I can move to ballasting soon.

So I will keep trying and up dating here as I move along the torturous task of having decent track work.

[mmagliaro]

Just a quick response to Bob, this is the second turnout in the same location, I can't remember now why I took out the first one, it was having problems I now know how to solve.  The reason I want to keep up with this is to learn more about turnouts and to have put in a third one.  I have dreams of soon ballasting...lol.

I have some guys coming over for my first open house ever and I'd like to have some solid track work to show them, but more importantly I have lots more track and turnouts to install and I want to get a grip on this problem.

I did find one thing, a "nub" (?) along the rail to simulate a spike (?) seemed to be protruding a bit, so I filed it down and now the engine will go through and not derail but it is still "rough" through the curved turnout.

It is not a curved turnout, though I do have a number currently laid and will be adding more.  I've had other problem turnouts and have slowly solved the problem, hoping to do the same with this one.  I am taking a two day hiatus from turnout derailment solving to finish some feeder wire soldering under the bench work in this area so I can move to ballasting soon.

So I will keep trying and up dating here as I move along the torturous task of having decent track work.

Can you take some close, sharp, photographs of this turnout, and indicate on the photos, perhaps with a freight car
sitting on it, the exact spot where it derails?  That would make enormous strides toward solving this.
I would take photos from the side with the car on it, and then some from directly overhead with the car out of the way.

Are there a number of spikeheads that are molded a little high on this turnout, making the wheels rumble across them?  Maybe
that one you filed was the worst one, but there are others.  I have had this happen more than once on Atlas code55 turnouts
(where I have to file down the spikeheads to let perfectly good flanges that work on Atlas flex go through without rumbling).
Perhaps you have a Peco turnout with some high plastic.

[nkalanaga]

If the spikes are too high, there could also be excess plastic on the side of the rail around the spikes.  I had that with a batch of ME code 40 flex.  The plastic was on the web of the rail, on weathered track, and very hard to see.  Once it was cleaned off everything ran much smoother.

[pnolan48]

Rick,

I'll bet the switch is either humped or twisted.

Or, as happened to me, there is something upstream that bumps the cars every so slightly. Mine was a piece of scenery that drooped, and brushed cars ever so slightly--but enough.

[nkalanaga]

It could even be out-of-line track upstream.  I'd definitely suggest getting a good flashlight and watching a train go through, paying attention to the wheels IN the turnout on the first pass, and BEFORE the turnout on the next one.  You may catch a wheel with the flange already on top of the rail.

[mark.hinds]

Best way to figure this out is: 

1)  Mount a good magnifier (ideally head- or glasses- mounted).
2)  Illuminate the section of track with a bright adjustable light source (such as a Luxo desk lamp). 

Once you have done the above, run the equipment in question (or a properly gauged truck) *slowly* over the track in question.  You will be able to see exactly what occurs.

MH

[nkalanaga]

Mark:  Sounds like you've had this problem too!  I have a pair of glasses-mounted magnifiers, and use a small LED flashlight.  It has the advantage of being able to be placed in more positions than the lamp, which I don't have, including below track level if the scenery allows.

Another trick is to use several cars, and pull or push them from the end.  Using one car by hand can change its behavior compared with being in a train, as you'll tend to push down or sideways as well as along the track. 

[hpwrick]

First off I agree with Peteski and others here, as in diagnose the problem so you can identify where the car is derailing.

You've gotten some excellent advice from everyone who has shared here, worth the read.

FYI  I'm installing some peco switches for a grainery switching yard.   So, we can do this together.   

What you have is a set of wheels that is picking and splitting the switch.   I know this all to well.

I have four new Peco switches and  and three old ones.   The old ones are giving me the same problem you are having.     My diagnosis is, the moveable points are not staying closed...despite the built in spring.    I've filed the points down and abrased the rail it comes into contact with.  I took  a file and cleaned out the space between the moveable point and the  rail.   To assure the points stay in place. I will install, as the final touch, a Caboose Hobbies...correction...Caboose Industries, hand throw.   This will pull the moveable point over to the rail for assured contact and it will hold it there.

These switches are nickel silver so we shouldn't have problems with oxidation like we did with brass rail.  Talking from years of experience with HO Atlas track.   I do believe there is a film that Peco uses to protect the metal.  It may cover the rail just enough to cause problems with electrical contact.    Once abrased off, the problem should be solved.  That is...until it get's dirty...again.

One other thing I do and I don't want this out there except as a last ditch effort.    I will use a emery board and run it through the frog.   I've found that this helps to open it up allowing deeper flanged or thicker flanged wheels to get through.

Just my two cents added into an already thorough discussion.

I hope my advice helps.

RickH   aka  BarstowRick



   

[hpwrick]

Here's what I had to do to solve one of my problems with derailing and power routing.   I may be repeating myself but it brings the point home and besides at my age...it's almost ok.   LOL

I've been having some problems with the older Peco switches as in power routing the current through the switch. Out comes the multi-meter and it affirms...no juice in the track. To resolve the many issues. I abrased the inside of the points and rails with a file. Noticed the Caboose Industries, hand throw was pushing the points over a bit to far and I corrected that by spotting a brad/nail to hold the switch in place. Noting no current getting to the non-moveable points I then soldered the rail joiner between the moveable points and the non-moveable points. Checked with a multi-meter which indicated power in the rails. Celebrated by running a loco through the switch and waahla, it works without the loco's stalling. 

I might add by abrasing the inside of the points and rail it narrowed the points solving my derailing problems.   By adding a hand throw, Caboose Industries, it holds the points in place, so they can't float.

If you thought you read this elsewhere, you did.   

I hope that helps.

[Rossford Yard]

You didn't happen to put a caboose industry ground throw on the inside?  It will catch the cars, which wouldn't show up just running trucks through.

Don't ask how I know this...

[hpwrick]

Rossford,

I have one hand throw set on the inside of a large radius,  Peco switch.    I checked it after your brought it to my attention and there is plenty of clearance.   The grain cars are long enough to hang up just not in this case.   I customize the hand throws to fit Peco's nubin's.    Leaving plenty of clearance.

Thanks for bringing that idea to our attention here.

[rsn48]

And the winner of the name what's wrong with the Peco 55 turnout is.... Pete Nolan.  The side of the entering towards the points rail was slightly pushed out, not that much and it didn't seem to make a difference with the NMRA gauge but it did make a difference to the flanges.