Just wondering

[wcfn100]

Did I make that correlation? 

Yes.  That's a correlation.

The PRR was so large that half of it's members could be former employees, and (from my experience) have no interest in model trains.  Or several other scenarios that you can't know or even guess.


Jason

[inkaneer]

Many, many members of Historical Associations join because they were former employees or family members of former employees. 
The ratio of members to modelers is shockingly small in most cases, less than 50%

That is meaningless.  Okay let's say the percentage of modelers in any given historical society is 40%.  OKAY?
So 40% of the PRR's 2900 members is 1160 modelers.  40% of the B&O's 1500 members is 600 modelers.  See it doesn't matter you start with a larger number you end up with a larger number.   Also, show me from what source you got your figures.  Where did you see the percentage of "less than 50%'?   You didn't make that up now did you?  Does anyone see what I am getting at here?  I am hearing all this stuff like "pennsy does not sell" or "Pennsy is a fifth tier RR" or the percentage of modelers is "less than 50%" but I am not seeing any evidence.  Once again, I say, SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE!!!

[James Costello]

Why can't anyone here stick to the issue?   This is not about diesels or rolling stock.   It's about people either leaving N scale or not even bothering with Nscale becuse they cannot get what they want. 

You might be right.... but the same potential market in that case exists for all railroads, not just Pennsy. There are gaps in ALL rosters. I'm sure there are plenty of Espee fans that chose HO over N in recent years thanks to Athearn's SD40T-2/SD45T-2 or the SW1500. As far as iconic steam goes, we haven't even covered ATSF #3751 or UP #844 (and the business car fleet) which people can still see run today - whats better than being able to model modern and being able to run a steam or two beside your ACes and GEVOs? It's not that simple for modern N modelers though, there are still many gaps in intermodal (JB Hunt containers as one example) that are available in HO.

Unfortunately, it still comes down to the relative popularity (or not) of the Pennsy against other roads. All fallen flags (and those to come) will struggle to compete against the paint schemes that people to can see today.

N does have it's advantages though. There are plenty of HO guys that noticed the boundaries that BLMA, ESM, FVM etc are pushing in N and are watching with interest. People still want to model long trains too and they still can't do that in HO as easy. N does offer it's manufacturers quantity - people do buy large quantities of rolling stock etc to get their long trains - the success of the single road releases (top gons for example) prove that there is economies of scale in N. The next few years of N releases are going to be very exciting!

[inkaneer]

Yes.  That's a correlation.

The PRR was so large that half of it's members could be former employees, and (from my experience) have no interest in model trains.  Or several other scenarios that you can't know or even guess.


Jason

Listen pal, as far as I am concerned you just lost all credibility with that statement.  I had a lot of people in both my family and my wife's family that worked on railroads to include the Pennsy, the P&LE, the Union RR, the Monongahela Connecting RR, the P&WV and the Allegheny Valley RR and they all had an interest in model trains.  My wife's uncle George was an engineer for the P&LE.  He started on the RR the day after he graduated from high school and they had to remove him from the cab when he was 70.  Only job he had in his life.  And while the P&LE was a NYC subsidiary, Ole Uncle George collected Pennsy K4's.  He just liked them.  Railroading is not just a job it gets in your blood.   It runs your life and becomes your life and, at times, ruins it too.   

[inkaneer]

Hey folks, Good Night I'm going to bed.  Let's save it for the morrow and if you please, do come up with the evidence that I asked for Okay?

[wazzou]

That is meaningless.    Where did you see the percentage of "less than 50%'?   You didn't make that up now did you? 

I am a member of the 12 person Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association's Modeling Committee for one thing. 
Most associations conduct formal or informal polls and the numbers I gave run pretty consistent with those results that I have seen. 
I am too disinterested in engaging you further to find proof.
The goal in most historical associations is...wait for it...history.  Documenting it, archiving it, sharing it on websites and in print, preserving it and yes, to a lesser extent describing how to model it.
That's a fact

[bbussey]

Listen if my assumptions are flawed then show me the flaw.  Then show me where the other side's assumpoptions are not flawed...

Now everyone here seems to believe that line about "Pennsy does not sell".  Why?   What evidence do you have?    All you have is statements made by people that, for all you know, maybe based on personal prejudice...

What is the point?  You don't listen.  If any explanation doesn't fit within your presumptions then you summarily dismiss it, regardless of the evidence to support it.

Nobody said Pennsy doesn't sell.  What was said is that road-specific steam is a crap shoot.  What also was said is that the Broadway Limited didn't sell as expected.  That's not based on personal preference or bias.  That is FACT - which is different than the ASSUMPTIONS you keep pushing.

Again - since you are so certain that any Pennsy steam would sell and have no problem with others gambling their money even though you are unwilling to gamble your own, then meet them half way: comprise a thorough presentation from valid research with tangible references showing how it is possible to sell 20,000 pieces of an N scale Pennsy-specific steam engine at $130 MSRP within two years time.

And enough with the "fifth-tier" crap you keep spitting out.  InterMountain releases a ton of Pennsy models regularly.  So if Pennsy isn't among their top-selling roads, you wouldn't know it based on their releases.

[wcfn100]

Listen pal, as far as I am concerned you just lost all credibility with that statement. 

Are you a member of a Railroad Historical Society?  It doesn't sound like you know what they are about.  And were your wife's family members part of the PRR historical society?  If not, they have nothing to do with what I said.

I remember an issue of the Northwestern Lines that covered in depth a particular town with maps and track plans and just some great modeling information.  It was one of the best issues I had read.  And it got the most complaints of any issue in the twenty years I've been a member.  There's your historical society membership. 

And to use myself as an example, I've been a member of the CNWHS for two decades and I'm not a CNW modeler.  I know many other CGW and M&St.L modelers are members as well, and they too wouldn't buy any CNW stuff.  Some even carry animosity towards the CNW.

PRR stuff sells just fine, it just isn't the sure thing that it might have been in the past.   And if Minitrix had made GN prototype steamers instead of PRR, this thread never would have happened.  You say PRR steam would sell, and I agree because all steam sells.  Being Pennsy carries little weight.  I talked with the owner of Benchmark models who put out the DM&IR Yellowstone regarding some of the other project he had listed like ore cars and an ore dock.  He told me there's no interest.  He said that the people who bought the locomotive didn't care what road name was on it.  They just wanted big steam.


Jason

[wm3798]

I'm a member of the 1000 strong WMRHS, which pursues a lot of modeling projects.  But there's a small contingent of guys that run them, and most of the sales are to the outside world, not to Society members.

The strength of having a good historical society behind a project is accuracy, not sales.  Like any organization, the interests vary from paper to 1:1 preservation to oral history.  Model trains account for only a fraction, and N scale is an even smaller sliver than that.

I can't provide the same kind of break down for you on the PRRT&HS, but I have been to chapter meetings in the Baltimore area, and I'll betcha a brown shoe that it's about the same.
Lee

[Sokramiketes]

Remember too that a Pennsy boxcar will sell to all modelers of that era. A Pennsy K4 is Pennsy modeler specific.

It's two types of completely different product.

[inkaneer]

What is the point?  You don't listen.  If any explanation doesn't fit within your presumptions then you summarily dismiss it, regardless of the evidence to support it.

What evidence?  Explanations are not evidence.   If an explanation is based on personal bias is that evidence?  So show me the evidence not the explanation.

Nobody said Pennsy doesn't sell.  What was said is that road-specific steam is a crap shoot.  What also was said is that the Broadway Limited didn't sell as expected.  That's not based on personal preference or bias.  That is FACT - which is different than the ASSUMPTIONS you keep pushing.

Well apparently that crap shoot was good enough for the manufacture of Big boys, cab forwards, Hiawathas and maybe a couple of others.  As for the Broadway Limited I checked BLW's page.  The BL may not have soldbut the GG1 surely did and even the PRR E8's are being rerun.  Nowwe can do the C. Vlk thing and say we don't know how big the run is but I'm sure there has to be a minimum number in order to get the run in the first place.  Add to that the fact that this is about the fifth time Kato has run the PRR E 8's.  So how do you explain why the trainset doesn't sell but the engines that pulled it do sell and sell enough to have multiple runs?  Got to be a valid explanation [not opinion] for that.

Again - since you are so certain that any Pennsy steam would sell and have no problem with others gambling their money even though you are unwilling to gamble your own, then meet them half way: comprise a thorough presentation from valid research with tangible references showing how it is possible to sell 20,000 pieces of an N scale Pennsy-specific steam engine at $130 MSRP within two years time.

Because I would do exactly that if I thought it would work.  But others have tried it before and breaking through to a mind that is closed is not possible.  How about I tell them I'll leave Nscale and go to HO?  They say good, we make HO too.   

And enough with the "fifth-tier" crap you keep spitting out.  InterMountain releases a ton of Pennsy models regularly.  So if Pennsy isn't among their top-selling roads, you wouldn't know it based on their releases.

The man said it and it was in connection with releasing the F7 in Pennsy.  It was phrased as a derogatory remark and not as one based on market research.  As for releasing a ton of cars- well I don't know what you call a ton but according to the Intermountain web site they make eight basic types of cars.  They are Boxcars, Hoppers, Gons, Flats, Tank, Refrigerated, Milk and Stockcars.  Of these Intermountain makes one gon and 2 boxcars [40 and 50 footers with 5 paint schemes].   Now that maybe a ton to you but I think the phrase, " InterMountain releases a ton of Pennsy models regularly." is crap.   Oh, by the way BLW commissioned a special run of Intermountain ACF covered hoppers in PRR.   Seems Intermountain "forgot" them.

[sirenwerks]

Because I would do exactly that if I thought it would work.  But others have tried it before and breaking through to a mind that is closed is not possible.  How about I tell them I'll leave Nscale and go to HO?  They say good, we make HO too.   

Cop out. First off, that's the whole ideal behind commercial venture, Person X puts up his own money to sell product to Persons Y with the hope of profit. If X tries and fails, one can't blame X for not wanting to go a second round. So why do you insist commercial ventures make PRR product if you already know it won't work and they won't make a profit (which is what they do for a living, not as a charitable pursuit)?

And the whole "other have tried it before..." and the description of failure that follows is one of the lamest excuses that exists. Why did it fail? If you know, fix it and do it right this time. If it can't be fixed, stop harping. There are many ways business ventures fail - the biggest being not trying at all.

[inkaneer]

Remember too that a Pennsy boxcar will sell to all modelers of that era. A Pennsy K4 is Pennsy modeler specific.

It's two types of completely different product.

That is so true, but pointless.  Now explain to me, if you can,  why the Minitrix K4, a 40 year old model that had operational problems and needs a lot of upgrading is, according to Spookshow, still in "high demand" to this very day.   Hellooooooooo,  Would a new K4 feed off of that demand and relegate the old K4 to the boneyard of history?   Can you explain to me in logical and rational terms why a locomotive with a forty year old design that needs a lot of work to upgrade to acceptable operation and which has not been produced in 12 years still remains in "high demand".    The logical and rational answer to me for this "high demand" of this engine is that people want it and this is the only possible choice available.   Is that illogical or irrational to you?  Now, let's hear your explanation why this "Pennsy modeler specific " locomotive is still in "high demand".   I really would like to hear it.

[inkaneer]

Cop out. First off, that's the whole ideal behind commercial venture, Person X puts up his own money to sell product to Persons Y with the hope of profit. If X tries and fails, one can't blame X for not wanting to go a second round. So why do you insist commercial ventures make PRR product if you already know it won't work and they won't make a profit (which is what they do for a living, not as a charitable pursuit)?

Well first off I do not know that it will not work.   You see, I look at Spookshow telling me that a 40 year old design of a K4 with operational difficulties that needs a lot of work to upgrade and which has not been made in over a decade is, in Spookshow's words "still remains in high demand".   Helloooooo, did you catch that?  Let me repeat it, "still remains in high demand".   Are you telling me that something that is in "high demand" does not indicate that people want it? 

And the whole "other have tried it before..." and the description of failure that follows is one of the lamest excuses that exists. Why did it fail? If you know, fix it and do it right this time. If it can't be fixed, stop harping. There are many ways business ventures fail - the biggest being not trying at all.

Sorry pal,  but as I explained before, I'm retired from the business world with absolutely no interest in returning to it.  Been there, done that and got two pensions with COLA's and Social Security to prove it.  They meet my financial  needs very well, thank you.   So forget the do it yourself crap, I have no financial incentive to undertake such a venture.   Far easier to switch to HO like others did which, if you read the original post in this thread, was the reason we are now discussing this. 

[Brakie]

Guys,If I may..
From '66-67 (68/69 PC) I was a PRR brakeman.I have no desire to model the PRR-in fact after the newness of the job wore off all I wanted was the paycheck-like the majority of the men I worked with.

The PRR remains a favorite railroad and it does sell quite well and there is a need for PRR steam locomotives.

IF N Scale is to survive as a active hobby instead of falling to a has been like O Scale 2 rail(O Scale was the most popular scale at one time) then there must be improvements in selections of steam locomotives from Santa Fe to PRR.

Reading though this topic I can see why the manufacturers doesn't take  N Scale seriously.

We are to busy fighting among ourselves then pursuing the manufacturers for more  new N Scale products..

In order to get that K4,a Atlantic or a Santa Fe 1950 class 2-8-0 we need to approach the manufacturers in one loud voice.