MTL's curious moves in the Z scale market

[Sokramiketes]

It was odd when MTL decided not to OEM trucks and couplers for the Z scale market anymore.  It was downright stupid for MTL to announce 33' hoppers in direct competition with Full Throttle. 

The corporate line has been "business is business" and that nothing was done in an attempt to hurt other manufacturers.

Now I hear that MTL obtained the tooling for the Marsillius UP coaches in Z.   

The current line of MTL Z scale passenger cars are bad.  They are the quality of 1980's ConCor N scale cars... poor detail definition, poor fit and finish, set back window glass, etc.  In distinct contrast, the Marsillius coaches are up to current standards in the industry.

So will MTL use the tooling to upgrade their models?  After all, the MTL coach is a match to the Marsillius in terms of prototype...  Will they release better Z scale passenger equipment now? 

[Chris333]

I think it will be funny if MT does a hopper scheme that I want and then I have to put Full Throttle trucks and couplers on it.

I forgot they even did passenger cars since they are modern.

[DKS]

Won't be any MTL hoppers in this household, guaranteed.

http://1-220.blogspot.com/2011/11/this-makes-no-sense.html

[Chris333]

Yeah why not scale down their 39' tank car into Z scale? A different boxcar? Flatcar?

[Catt]

I think you guys are over reacting on these hoppers.As long as Will and MTL use different road numbers they could do the same cars in the same roadname in the same month and you guys will just get the chance to build your fleets that much quicker.

But then again these cars are out of my era so it doesn't really bother me or my wallet.

Funny how none of the other scales raise a rucus when there are 4 or 5 companys doing things like Rail Box,or coal porters.

Oh I just realized why your bitchin' it's MTL doing it.Mystery solved.

[DKS]

I think you guys are over reacting on these hoppers.As long as Will and MTL use different road numbers they could do the same cars in the same roadname in the same month and you guys will just get the chance to build your fleets that much quicker.

But then again these cars are out of my era so it doesn't really bother me or my wallet.

Funny how none of the other scales raise a rucus when there are 4 or 5 companys doing things like Rail Box,or coal porters.

Oh I just realized why your bitchin' it's MTL doing it.Mystery solved.

Sorry to contradict some of your assumptions, but here are some facts. Z scale has the smallest range of product of any scale. This means two things: one, we could go for decades without anyone ever having to duplicate another's product; and two, variety trumps quantity. We need every different product the manufacturers can muster. Plus, Z scalers as a whole aren't as likely as those in other scales to build fleets; and since these cars are out of your era, your opinion is mooted.

Modelers in other scales do in fact raise a stink when products are duplicated; you're just not paying attention. Hang around the N scale board here at Railwire on a regular basis, and you'll see what I mean.

As for the venom directed at MTL, IMO they have earned it in cards and spades. They have done nothing but screw around with Z scale and cause others grief. Look at their idiotic OEM policy on trucks and couplers. It quite literally almost put Will Wright out of business. And now this: not only are they needlessly duplicating products, but duplicating the key products of a one-man show. Oh, yeah, the same one they almost sank once before. That is beyond shameful.

Hardly anyone on the MTL staff understands the modeling market, and even fewer know anything about trains (I think it's one or maybe two). They inherited the business from its founders, and their incompetence is showing progressively more as they run out of ideas. They are clueless how to respond to the Z scale market (in fact some of management doesn't even want to be in Z scale); mostly they just mimic what the little guys are doing, to the determent of the hobby. They need a management transfusion in the worst way, or things will just continue to spiral downhill.

As far as I'm concerned, MTL deserves every complaint one can muster. They have demonstrated time and again they have lost their way. They do not have to do what they are doing to Will; there is no business sense to it, no market advantage, and most importantly, no moral right.

[Chris333]

Without even putting Will in the mix.

In N scale MT had 33' hoppers forever and then Atlas did them as well. The thing is in N scale I have 5-6 different tank cars in the same era to choose from. Z scale has none. That beercan that MT has been selling as a Z scale tankcar doesn't really count so...

And how many 1950's era boxcars are there in N scale? I'm not going to count, but maybe around 15-20 different models available of a 1950's era boxcar.

Once MT tools a Z scale hopper car it will be that much longer before we get something needed in Z from them. It is hard to even put together a single train without all the cars being the same models with different paintjobs. I see more than paint when I look at my trains.

[DKS]

Once MT tools a Z scale hopper car it will be that much longer before we get something needed in Z from them.

All too true. My suspicion is that they have no clue what to tool next. So... why not just copy someone who is successful? Sure must have saved them a load of work to have Will's hoppers to reverse-engineer.

[wcfn100]

All too true. My suspicion is that they have no clue what to tool next. So... why not just copy someone who is successful? Sure must have saved them a load of work to have Will's hoppers to reverse-engineer.

You should be so lucky that they'd reverse engineer somebody else's tooling.  The MTL Z hopper has the exact same mistake the N scale one has.  Something that the FT hopper has correct.


Jason

[Catt]

AZL does practically the same thing with their center-flo but gets a pass.Granted the ED Models car is a kit but AZL chose the exact same version for their over priced version of the car .Both the 2 and 3 bay center flows are copies of Ed's cars except Ed has better ladders.

But then that is AZL and not MTL isn't it so it's ok. Isn't it.

[Chris333]

Is ED models still in business? They pop up every once in a while with new stuff and right ofter it is all out of production.

[DKS]

AZL does practically the same thing with their center-flo but gets a pass.Granted the ED Models car is a kit but AZL chose the exact same version for their over priced version of the car .Both the 2 and 3 bay center flows are copies of Ed's cars except Ed has better ladders.

But then that is AZL and not MTL isn't it so it's ok. Isn't it.

Apples and oranges, I'm afraid.

[ztrack]

Granted the ED Models car is a kit but AZL chose the exact same version for their over priced version of the car .

Hmmm let's do some math for the ACF 3-Bays:

ED kit (Z Monster listed price) - $19.99
ED decal sheet for the kit (Z Monster listed price) - $1.95
Trucks for the kit (MTL - sale price from Z Monster) - $5.16
Total for the kit - $27.10

All new MRL AZL ACF 3-Bay from Z Scale Monster - $29.76

Difference between the kit and a ready to run, pad printed hopper - $2.66.

If you think $2.66 is over priced, you really need to rethink being in Z scale.

Okay back to the subject at hand. I have been waiting for MTL to release hoppers in Z scale. Like you all, I was very surprised by their decision. I figured they would release 3-bays like those Pennzee use to offer. They have this in N scale, and there is a strong demand for these 3 bays.

The diversity of rolling stock and locomotives in Z scale is key for the growth of Z. I can't comment on why MTL took this route, but I can't help and think it will take them longer to recoup their investment versus if they chose to offer an all new body style.

I consider Will a good friend and have been a strong supporter of his line since the beginning. He is an amazing man for taking such a risk in Z scale to invest tooling for four Z scale body styles. If anyone reading this is not familiar with the line, I encourage you to take a look at the line and see what a small independent company can do.

http://wdwfullthrottle.com/index.htm

Rob Kluz

[Sokramiketes]

AZL does practically the same thing with their center-flo but gets a pass.Granted the ED Models car is a kit but AZL chose the exact same version for their over priced version of the car .Both the 2 and 3 bay center flows are copies of Ed's cars except Ed has better ladders.

But then that is AZL and not MTL isn't it so it's ok. Isn't it.

Kit vs RTR is a lot different than RTR vs RTR.  If someone decides to offer a RTR centerbeam flatcar I'm not going to fault them for "copying" CK, Robert Ray, or StoneBridge either.  And if AZL was copying the same 33' hoppers I'd say the same thing about AZL that is being said about MTL.

The move by MTL to make 33' hoppers of the same design as Full Throttle is 100% wrong business wise, let alone wrong for the Z scaler's who support the market and wrong morally against Full Throttle. 

[ztrack]

Mike, funny you choose that example. AZL is planning on releasing RTR 73' centerbeams. It may be the end of the CK centerbeam line. But it has had a good run. I still think there will be a market for centerbeam kits that differ from the RTR type AZL is releasing.

Rob