Tehachapi, BC

[C855B]

The clearance issue was what I had in mind when you and I were discussing staging on the GC&W plan. I was having a lot of trepidation trying to design 12" of level-to-level transition from staging given the challenge already with the nearly 40 feet of linear transition between the main and branchline levels, also 12". Helixes are OK, I guess, but I hesitate at that thought since you (we) would be going down to a lower level, and maintenance/trouble access to the helix center that much more of a gymnastics challenge.

IOW, with benchwork framing I was also looking at 8" of access clearance for staging. Didn't sound like a good plan over the long term, the aforementioned knockdown risk a biggie.

[mark dance]

Interesting thought about the UT's only sending a change state.  It does almost seem as if they are missing a few speed steps, which might happen if the change state is not getting through reliably.  This makes me worry a bit about running helpers with two UT's.

Are there any tools available to monitor loco-net traffic to see what instructions the booster is getting from the throttle?  Maybe in JMRI?

-gfh

P.S. It has been a glorious summer in BC.    I did have to break down a get a fan for the garage though.

And I bought a 12k BTU air conditioner on sale from Home Depot and installed it before I left for our travels!

JMRI has some great tools for monitoring Loconet bus traffic.  We could run an experiment on the C&W quite easily. You can also try running the UT's tethered as well.

As to running helpers/pushers with only UTs, the C&W experience has been pretty good however we aren't running 14' long spine car trains with low profile wheel sets either!
.

md

[Bendtracker1]

Gary,
I've noticed the same thing Mark mentioned about a slight delay in my UT4r when in wireless mode, just give it a second or two or as Mark said, hit center off, pause and then reverse.

I've never noticed that my UTr's are any less smooth than my DT's though.

JMRI has a drop down option at the top of the page for Loconet Monitoring when viewing the main window of DecoderPro3, along with a few other tools Mark mentioned.  When the loconet window is open you can see everything that Loconet is sending and receiving!  Also note that each of the throttles will have their own throttle ID number, but if you have a few of them you will more than likely have duplicate numbers.
http://jmri.sourceforge.net/help/en/html/apps/LocoTools/#locomon 


The layout is looking good Gary!

[jagged ben]

Are there any tools available to monitor loco-net traffic to see what instructions the booster is getting from the throttle?  Maybe in JMRI?

Yes, JMRI has that.

I wouldn't use the UT throttles for DPU control.  I'd go with the dual control throttles like you did in your experiment.  Otherwise you'll have to have to carefully train your operators to communicate with each other.   On the prototype one engineer controls front and rear power.  Also if the UT throttles are slightly less reliable that's not a good thing.

[mark dance]

I wouldn't use the UT throttles for DPU control.  I'd go with the dual control throttles like you did in your experiment.  Otherwise you'll have to have to carefully train your operators to communicate with each other.   On the prototype one engineer controls front and rear power.  Also if the UT throttles are slightly less reliable that's not a good thing.

This depends on the era of course.  On the C&W we use two operators and I believe it adds a whole new and interesting dimension to operations.  One very nice thing is that given the close proximity (8 blocks?) and that we both use duplexing Digitrax systems,  Gary can try both...or mix and match as he sees fit!

md

[Philip H]

This depends on the era of course.  On the C&W we use two operators and I believe it adds a whole new and interesting dimension to operations.  One very nice thing is that given the close proximity (8 blocks?) and that we both use duplexing Digitrax systems,  Gary can try both...or mix and match as he sees fit!

md

A that range he could really have some fun with you between sessions . . .

"No Mark, I was out walking the dog . . . what ever makes you think I was running your trains in the rain with a UT4R?"

[GaryHinshaw]

Excellent info.  I'm glad (and not surprised) to hear that JMRI has the appropriate toolkit.  Now I just need to set up JMRI...  I have to say, as much as I like modelling (especially detailing & weathering), the technology side of the hobby is pretty fun too.  I'm really looking forward to the day when we can run on signal indication with scottl serving as the Omaha dispatcher.   

As of now, I only have one of each throttle to try out.  I was fully planning to take advantage of md's proximity to borrow some more UT's for a test session before committing further.  (LOL Philip)  Consider this a formal request Mark.  Of course you're invited to the inaugural session!  I'll make sure it doesn't interfere with Vanrail.

As for 1-person or 2-person crews, I expect I will make both options available.  I don't feel a real need to be prototypical about it, and it depends somewhat on the comfort level of the crew member(s). 

-gfh

[John]

I'm really looking forward to the day when we can run on signal indication with scottl serving as the Omaha dispatcher.   

I am getting close .. I have all the SE8Cs I need, and am building signals now ..  so far, about 1/4 of the lower level is done ... maybe you can dispatch the M&O sometime using skype and jmri

[Philip H]

I am getting close .. I have all the SE8Cs I need, and am building signals now ..  so far, about 1/4 of the lower level is done ... maybe you can dispatch the M&O sometime using skype and jmri

Yes, well . . . but at that point we'll all need iPads to run JMRI and Facetime or Skype with Gary.  And I thought FVM GEVOs were going to break the bank.

[GaryHinshaw]

I am getting close .. I have all the SE8Cs I need, and am building signals now ..  so far, about 1/4 of the lower level is done ... maybe you can dispatch the M&O sometime using skype and jmri

Would love to John, and ditto for TBC, but that is still a long ways off....

I did some testing with a tethered UT and still see the same speed control: there seems to be a steeper than average jump in speed around 9 o'clock on the throttle knob, so it would appear to be the rheostat mapping.    The digital speed steps shown on the 402 are very smooth in this range.  It's workable as is, but I'd be curious to see if other UT's show the same behavior.

-gfh

[John]

Would love to John, and ditto for TBC, but that is still a long ways off....

I did some testing with a tethered UT and still see the same speed control: there seems to be a steeper than average jump in speed around 9 o'clock on the throttle knob, so it would appear to be the rheostat mapping.    The digital speed steps shown on the 402 are very smooth in this range.  It's workable as is, but I'd be curious to see if other UT's show the same behavior.

-gfh

I wonder if they use a different version of encoders in the different throttles ...

[mark dance]

I wonder if they use a different version of encoders in the different throttles ...

I think there are ~350 degree rheostats in the UTs and infinite-turn encoders in the DTs.  That's what I recall they feel like anyways...my memory may be faulty.

Gary: to get a definitive answer try the Yahoo-Digitrax Group (forum).  Like the Yahoo-JMRI forum it is full of helpful and knowledgeable people.  Both forum are worth belonging too...especially if/when advanced troubles with your Duplexing radio system emerge just before international invitational operating events!

md

[reinhardtjh]

I think there are ~350 degree rheostats in the UTs and infinite-turn encoders in the DTs.  That's what I recall they feel like anyways...my memory may be faulty.

You are correct.  UT4's have potentiometers and DT40x's have encoders.  Where I operate road engineers are given UT4's.  Unfortunately, due to many different settings of momentum and speed curves, it's very hard to tell it there is a non-linearity in the UT4 throttle control.  I'm not currently in a position to do much testing first hand.

[GaryHinshaw]

Time to air some dirty laundry...  With the upper deck track work nearing completion and a desire to get closer to a first ops session (limited though it will be), it was time to take away the 4x8 plywood sheet I had been using as a work table for the last several months and expose the mess that the garage had truly become.  Here is a shot taken early Friday morning 



One of my goals for the weekend was to organize this mess in a way that could accommodate the lower decks to come.   Here is the same view taken this morning (this is taken from near the doorway looking over the newly-mocked-up central peninsula -- more on that shortly -- into the main operator area):



Granted there is still plenty of visible clutter, but the big accomplishment of the weekend was to actually clear out all of the floor space that is ultimately called for in the plan, and to find or identify a home for everything that remains unhoused.  This was a necessary step before any ops session could even be considered.   The main storage task that's still unfinished is to organize the CD's and the small parts (nails, screws, etc.) in the back right corner, but that is a fairly modest task.  (I will also work through the unsightly stock of spare wood along the garage wall as further benchwork proceeds.  In time the back wall will be cleaned up significantly.)   

The white cabinet under the Loop shelf had been serving as a very inefficient chest for my hand tools, but it turned out to be the perfect size for storing all my house paint and drywall supplies.  It also gives me a convenient counter for operator's drinks and will partially obscure the view of the staging helix still to come.  If it seems like a good thing to keep, I'll probably build a nicer version in place and paint it black or dark grey.

As part of the re-org, I finished re-packing our overflow book boxes into new, uniformly-sized banker boxes that will live under the Storage Yard, then went ahead and mounted the first section of bench work for that yard at a height of 36" (the Edison deck above it is still just a mock-up resting in place):





[I even have 3 empty boxes available there for more storage ]  As for the deck separation discussed earlier, I ended up putting the Edison shelf at 44", so there is 8" between decks, roadbed-to-roadbed, ~7" of clear space between the yard and the bottom of the roadbed, and 5.5" of clear space under the front support beam (instead of the 4.5" in the previous rendition).   This feels pretty comfortable to me now.  Going forward, my plan is to continue building the Storage Yard (SY2) in place along this wall:



to the point where I can get some operating experience with a deck over it to see how it goes.  If it's problematic, I can still figure out a way to lower it some more, but my gut tells me I won't have to.  BTW, extending this yard will also force me to move the CD rack and build permanent shelving for all the power supplies and DCC accessories that will go under the yard in that corner.  I'll then route the bus wires more carefully.

While mounting the yard bench, I also took the time to finalize the size of the photo backdrop for the upper Mojave deck and to trim the wall stringers down to the height of the mountains, so it's just 'blue sky' above.  (The last 3 stringers still need trimming.)  I'm going to try getting a version of this back-drop professionally printed later this week.

In one last bit of re-org, I managed to refurbish a low book case I built years ago to serve as a home for my magazines and track supplies.  Happily, this will fit nicely under the main yard on the opposite wall:



All in all a pretty productive couple of days.  More to come shortly.  Thx for looking.

-gfh

[Philip H]

Order from chaos - I knew you were my kind of scientist Gary. My book loving wife would approve of the bankers boxes as well.

As to deck separation, does that shot of the one Deck resting on the storage yard show the current separation?