Looks like Atlas is sorting out their issues!

[lock4244]

At the same time, we are currently working on a new set of announcements for both HO and N-scale.

As always, thank you for your patience and support of Atlas products.

Rob Pisani
Atlas Model Railroad Co."
http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=65820

I hope it isn't everything under the sun for HO and one lousy Trainman car for N.

It had better be an N scale GP40-2W... though given my recent experience with their locomotives, they might want to fix those first.

[Scottl]

I'm with you on the GP-40W.  It would be a simple step to a GP-38W from there.  I've never had a bad product from Atlas, so I'd buy lots of those!

[lock4244]

I've had a GP38 and a pair of C630's that are duds... new and don't run or almost dead. Plus a number of C628's and C630's that need to be warmed up to get going. Something about the lube used on them gumming up, IIRC. Not stellar for the money.

[sirenwerks]

At the same time, we are currently working on a new set of announcements for both HO and N-scale.

As always, thank you for your patience and support of Atlas products.

 
Rob Pisani
Atlas Model Railroad Co."[/i]
http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=65820

I'm with Mike on this, this statement doesn't make any promises that the announcement will be anywhere near a 50/50 split. If there are 10 announcements, HO could get 9, and N only 1.

Also, I'm not  sure that Rob's caught on; many are losing the patience with Atlas that he's thanking them for. And that likely means Atlas is losing market share and sales to others.

[bbussey]

... And that likely means Atlas is losing market share and sales to others.

The one reason I would disagree is that, for the most part, specific models are offered by only one manufacturer.  If a modeler specifically wants a SD60M, he/she has to buy the Atlas product; if one wants a GG-1, Kato is the only answer, etcetera.

[sirenwerks]

The one reason I would disagree is that, for the most part, specific models are offered by only one manufacturer.  If a modeler specifically wants a SD60M, he/she has to buy the Atlas product; if one wants a GG-1, Kato is the only answer, etcetera.

In respect to locos, I can see your point. I do love my Atlas Geeps but I tend to think in terms of the train less as all about the locos and more about the rolling stock. Look at locos AND rolling stock and Atlas has much aging tooling and many generalized models now fast made unmarketable by newer releases, which tend to reflect specific prototypes and refined detail. The latter is fast becoming a point of competition that Atlas can no longer assert itself in by size of catalog, where new companies such as your own are making headway and capturing a (presently) very limited amount of hobby spending, thus taking it away from releases Atlas could be making.

[JoeD]

Yes and no.  In the world of model railroading I think the majority of folks go into a hobby shop and buy something that catches their eye or has the road name they are interested in.  "We" run the risk of thinking that everyone is a focused and knowledgable as "we" are.  I hit every hobby shop I go into on the road and I hear, from every shop owner that most of their customers are price sensitive first, prototype second, MFG third.  I have a number of friends in the LA area that have moved to model railroading and it's fun and educational to watch their buying habbits.  They snap up the $50 Lifelike engines and low cost freight cars as quickly as they can find them.  With time (and pressure from me ) ) they will learn the difference in quality, history and proto  (I sent them the link to your web site and they were blown away Bryan)...but in the mean time, Walthers is enjoying their attentions.  I guess the point is that the larger market isn't as tuned in as we are and when Trainman came along and Walthers and Lifelike hit their strides, the price point was very attractive to the more pedestrian modeler which represents the larger market.  I know Atlas will get things lined up soon, trust me I feel their pain!  )

Joe
MTL  

The one reason I would disagree is that, for the most part, specific models are offered by only one manufacturer.  If a modeler specifically wants a SD60M, he/she has to buy the Atlas product; if one wants a GG-1, Kato is the only answer, etcetera.

[Scottl]

Some folks here want a lot from manufacturers and are pretty quick to jump on a company that does not meet their expectations.  They want unusual paint schemes, specific prototypes and a good price.  In my view, Atlas has served all three of these needs reasonably well- arguably better than any company.  Some of the smaller and newer companies are bringing out exciting new products with more detail and higher prices, but the specificity of some of these models will necessarily make them niche products.

I am fine with both types of companies and products.  I'm happy to pay for innovative new products that meet my needs, but my yard will be full of Atlas products.  A number of people here seem to still be willing to spend a little time to detail or kitbash more generic models to their needs.

[bbussey]

In respect to locos, I can see your point. I do love my Atlas Geeps but I tend to think in terms of the train less as all about the locos and more about the rolling stock. Look at locos AND rolling stock and Atlas has much aging tooling and many generalized models now fast made unmarketable by newer releases, which tend to reflect specific prototypes and refined detail. The latter is fast becoming a point of competition that Atlas can no longer assert itself in by size of catalog, where new companies such as your own are making headway and capturing a (presently) very limited amount of hobby spending, thus taking it away from releases Atlas could be making.

I understand what you're saying.  Definitely there is more crossover with the rolling stock, and there is a ton of vintage tooling still on the market.  Atlas brilliantly addressed "dated" yet still viable tooling with the formation of the Trainman line, and the occasional "shifting" of models from the Master line into the Trainlman line.  I think it's a good development that more and more prototype-specific rolling stock is appearing and pushing the generic "mash-up" models toward retirement. 

I actually believe that the current situation is good, even with less disposable income to spend.  The ideal "fleet" for a manufacturer in my mind is to be able to offer models that fit in most if not all of the general body classifications - boxcar, hopper, gondola, flat, stock, caboose.  Using ESM as an example, choosing a specific prototype attracts modelers looking for that specific as well as some who are just looking for a pretty car.  Given that, there's no reason the larger manufacturers wouldn't benefit from that strategy as well.  Yes, the older Atlas tooling from 20+ years ago may be generic. But everything tooled since then has been of a specific prototype, and they continue to release multiple new bodystyles annually.  Given that their rolling stock pricing always will be competitive, I don't see how Atlas looses their rolling stock market share as their older generic tooling eventually is retired.

... In the world of model railroading I think the majority of folks go into a hobby shop and buy something that catches their eye or has the road name they are interested in.  "We" run the risk of thinking that everyone is a focused and knowledgable as "we" are.  I hit every hobby shop I go into on the road and I hear, from every shop owner that most of their customers are price sensitive first, prototype second, MFG third...

This also illustrates the point.  As long as Atlas continues to tool new rolling stock models, and economically price the older tooling, they shouldn't be adversely affected.

[SkipGear]

The only thing causing Atlas to loose market share is the fact that I haven't seen a new Atlas rolling stock/loco product hit the shelves in going on 3 months. Between boring releases, esoteric paint schemes that the majority of the public have no clue about and thus we didn't bother ordering, and delays on the product we did order, our shop is steadily depleating our inventory of Atlas product on the shelves.

[sirenwerks]

Tony you bring up a curious point - with the steam era and even transition era quickly fading in the memory of the hobby audience (to be replaced by more contemporary RRing) should the manufacturers take up a role, even in a small part, for educating the consumer? Until this point it's been a plunk it down on the shelf and the hobbyist will already know all about it, but as the hobbysists get younger and the product stays stuck in time (largely in the steam era) if the manufacturer wants to continue selling it, maybe they need to put more umph into how they present the product.

In any marketing class you're going to find the teacher discussing how removing any and all barriers to purchase will help to move the product. A potential purchaser like me, who has to research a release to check its prototypicalness, even just reading the build date from the car side, can run into frustration that stops a sale from occurring. The manufacturers have supposedly already done the research it, so why not present it with the car (say, in an electronic format) to help the move the sale to completion?

[MichaelWinicki]

Tony you bring up a curious point - with the steam era and even transition era quickly fading in the memory of the hobby audience (to be replaced by more contemporary RRing) should the manufacturers take up a role, even in a small part, for educating the consumer? Until this point it's been a plunk it down on the shelf and the hobbyist will already know all about it, but as the hobbysists get younger and the product stays stuck in time (largely in the steam era) if the manufacturer wants to continue selling it, maybe they need to put more umph into how they present the product.

In any marketing class you're going to find the teacher discussing how removing any and all barriers to purchase will help to move the product. A potential purchaser like me, who has to research a release to check its prototypicalness, even just reading the build date from the car side, can run into frustration that stops a sale from occurring. The manufacturers have supposedly already done the research it, so why not present it with the car (say, in an electronic format) to help the move the sale to completion?

Interesting points.

Let me toss out a general statement that a company can go broke "educating the market". 

Marketing can't create demand... And it if a company has an ambition to try creating demand, they had better have a barrel full (or two) of cash ready to toss at the problem– And there's no guarantee that it will achieve its goals.

No, marketing is most efficient when it's tickling the fancy of demand that is already there. 

How do you measure demand?  In this day and age, it's much easier than it use to be.  Surveys are one such tool.

I do like your idea about sharing more data concerning a specific product.  I think that's something manufacturers/suppliers can do without costing them a mint.

Like you, I have to hunt in many cases to find out what the build date or repainting date is on a piece of rolling stock before I purchase it.  I'm just not sure that this type of information is at all relevant for most modelers.

[sirenwerks]

Respectfully Michael, you have a narrow vision of what marketing is. Conception of a product, whether from consumer need or from the head of Zeus, is marketing; product design is marketing; packaging is marketing; pricing is marketing; distribution channel selection and maintenance is marketing; customer service is marketing; and, of course, what most people limit the definition of marketing to, paid advertising and free public relations, is marketing. The last part costs money but the first parts, if properly planned and developed, save money. A poorly conceived and executed product cost a manufacturer money, rather than making it.

When consulting with nonprofits I have always counsel that if they think they don't have the time to plan what they're doing at the start, what makes them think they'll have the twice as much time needed to fix the problems planning could have solved? This is very true in terms of for-profit venture as well. What makes a company think they can get away without initial outlay of time, effort, and capital to set-up a product to be well-received; if they'll be putting in twice as much of all that later when the product proves to perform poorly on the market?

If marketing can not create consumer need, Coca Cola would likely not exist today, as it serves no real consumer need; yet the lifestyle that attends the Coke brand is really what keeps the product going out the door, more than its sickly sweet taste.

You're right that many people will not care about the details I or you do. But knowing those details won't keep others from buying the product and, in fact, it may sell them on it if they're hedging. For instance, when I go to buy printer paper I don't necessarily go searching out high recycle content paper, but if there's a choice between one product that is high recycle content and one that's not, I'll likely buy the more environmentally-conscious product; and I never would have known about that had the manufacturer not told me. No, it's not quite the same, but information is just as much a commodity these days as physical product is, and it can be sold or create sales.

[SkipGear]

Tony you bring up a curious point - with the steam era and even transition era quickly fading in the memory of the hobby audience (to be replaced by more contemporary RRing) should the manufacturers take up a role, even in a small part, for educating the consumer? Until this point it's been a plunk it down on the shelf and the hobbyist will already know all about it, but as the hobbysists get younger and the product stays stuck in time (largely in the steam era) if the manufacturer wants to continue selling it, maybe they need to put more umph into how they present the product.

In any marketing class you're going to find the teacher discussing how removing any and all barriers to purchase will help to move the product. A potential purchaser like me, who has to research a release to check its prototypicalness, even just reading the build date from the car side, can run into frustration that stops a sale from occurring. The manufacturers have supposedly already done the research it, so why not present it with the car (say, in an electronic format) to help the move the sale to completion?

Bryan,
 Quite honestly, the stuff stagnating on the shelves is the middle era stuff 60's-80's. Modern era stuff sells just fine, steam era stuff sells just fine. The Atlas outside braced, single sheathed and rebuilt boxcars sell fast. Modern intermodal sells fast. If it distinctly looks the era, it sells. The grey area and esoteric stuff is where the problem lies. The esoteric road names I am talking about are all the unusual short lines and one off's that most people don't have a clue about unless they live in the region that the roads run. As much as I would love to see Atlas do some Indiana and Ohio GP30 and 40's, I don't expect it to happen yet I see similar roads anounced each month that have a very localized appeal and no need for us to even bother carrying.  We can't sell PC, Chessie or Conrail at all yet B&O, C&O, CSX, NS, and even UP and BNSF sell fine. Both ends of the time line with nothing in the middle. Keep in mind, we are a HobbyTown but also one of the last full line train shops in town. We get both casual and craftsman type customers so I see a full range of interests.

 I wish the manufactures would do more like MicroTrains and put a little history of the car on the box. Build and in-service dates would be extremely helpful for when the customer is just not sure. My knowlege of a cars history when talking to a customer can help sell it but I'm not there the whole time the store is open. The dates my kill a sale just as easily as it makes the sale though and might be why they are not doing it. It's not so much to educate the customer but give them the information they need, should they care. If the customer is just buying NYC because it's NYC, dates and such are not going to sway or deter him anyhow.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Respectfully Michael, you have a narrow vision of what marketing is. Conception of a product, whether from consumer need or from the head of Zeus, is marketing; product design is marketing; packaging is marketing; pricing is marketing; distribution channel selection and maintenance is marketing; customer service is marketing; and, of course, what most people limit the definition of marketing to, paid advertising and free public relations, is marketing. The last part costs money but the first parts, if properly planned and developed, save money. A poorly conceived and executed product cost a manufacturer money, rather than making it.

When consulting with nonprofits I have always counsel that if they think they don't have the time to plan what they're doing at the start, what makes them think they'll have the twice as much time needed to fix the problems planning could have solved? This is very true in terms of for-profit venture as well. What makes a company think they can get away without initial outlay of time, effort, and capital to set-up a product to be well-received; if they'll be putting in twice as much of all that later when the product proves to perform poorly on the market?

If marketing can not create consumer need, Coca Cola would likely not exist today, as it serves no real consumer need; yet the lifestyle that attends the Coke brand is really what keeps the product going out the door, more than its sickly sweet taste.

You're right that many people will not care about the details I or you do. But knowing those details won't keep others from buying the product and, in fact, it may sell them on it if they're hedging. For instance, when I go to buy printer paper I don't necessarily go searching out high recycle content paper, but if there's a choice between one product that is high recycle content and one that's not, I'll likely buy the more environmentally-conscious product; and I never would have known about that had the manufacturer not told me. No, it's not quite the same, but information is just as much a commodity these days as physical product is, and it can be sold or create sales.

You're right about marketing being more than just sell'n stuff.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Coke sells because people want it... not because they need it.   The whole needs vs wants thing is a sticky wicket.