How long till MTH attempts N scale?

[Puddington]

I put MTH in the same category as PWRS, PCM, The Freight Yard, and TexNRails. 

So, my answer: hopefully never.

N-Scale has been built on the support of the smaller guys churning out great products.  I'd hate to see any of them get "lawyer'ed out of business."

So; let me get the right; you are against a new entry into the n scale market because of what these companies have done; been accused of doing; been rumoured to have done; or "whatever"..... and therefore associate MTH with said offenese.....( and I am well aware of their large scale journey).... I really would like you to clarify this post - I don't want to assume anything......

[Denver Road Doug]

So; let me get the right; you are against a new entry into the n scale market because of what these companies have done; been accused of doing; been rumoured to have done; or "whatever"..... and therefore associate MTH with said offenese.....( and I am well aware of their large scale journey).... I really would like you to clarify this post - I don't want to assume anything......

No, MTH stands alone, with their own "offenses."

[2-8-8-0]

I am not sure...what is MTH about? I dont know anything about them, anyone have the Cliff's notes on why theyre unwelcome?

[shawnleon]

 My feelings about the company have been softened by their victory over UP.

???

Google it.

Had no idea that MTH stood their ground. Never heard about this settlement. That's a pretty good outcome for the industry in general.

[Puddington]

So; let me get the right; you are against a new entry into the n scale market because of what these companies have done; been accused of doing; been rumoured to have done; or "whatever"..... and therefore associate MTH with said offenese.....( and I am well aware of their large scale journey).... I really would like you to clarify this post - I don't want to assume anything......

No, MTH stands alone, with their own "offenses."

Yep; they are evil; they stood up to the Union Pacific so that modelers could model.......how rotten of them.

[SkipGear]

In fairness, you must also mention that MTH put the nail in the coffin for Lionel and forced their bankruptcy. MTH was once a subcontractor for Lionel, producing their loco's for them. When MTH decided to go it alone, Lionel pulled it's contracts from MTH and MTH then sued. It depends on who you interview as to who was in the wrong but the suit sucked up a lot of Lionel's resources in the 90's and forced them to bankruptcy. After that there are a few more suits over stolen loco plans that Lionel eventually lost.

MTH is also part of the reason that sound decoders have been slow to advance until recently. They patented sound features that are a basic part of DCC, keeping others from using the features and improving sound decoders. That suit is now over and as a result, Digitrax and a few others are now moving forward with new sound product that they have had designed for a couple years now waiting for the final decsion.

There is an MTH centric listing of the events here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTH_Electric_Trains
There was an article favoring the Lionel side in Forbes magazine at one point.
 

[Denver Road Doug]

In fairness, you must also mention that MTH put the nail in the coffin for Lionel and forced their bankruptcy. MTH was once a subcontractor for Lionel, producing their loco's for them. When MTH decided to go it alone, Lionel pulled it's contracts from MTH and MTH then sued. It depends on who you interview as to who was in the wrong but the suit sucked up a lot of Lionel's resources in the 90's and forced them to bankruptcy. After that there are a few more suits over stolen loco plans that Lionel eventually lost.

MTH is also part of the reason that sound decoders have been slow to advance until recently. They patented sound features that are a basic part of DCC, keeping others from using the features and improving sound decoders. That suit is now over and as a result, Digitrax and a few others are now moving forward with new sound product that they have had designed for a couple years now waiting for the final decsion.

There is an MTH centric listing of the events here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTH_Electric_Trains
There was an article favoring the Lionel side in Forbes magazine at one point.
 

What he said.

This world doesn't need another suit-happy, lawyer heavy company.  Our hobby certainly cannot withstand it, and I'll be damned if I want n-scale having to deal with that crap.

[sirenwerks]

In fairness, you must also mention that MTH put the nail in the coffin for Lionel and forced their bankruptcy. MTH was once a subcontractor for Lionel, producing their loco's for them. When MTH decided to go it alone, Lionel pulled it's contracts from MTH and MTH then sued. It depends on who you interview as to who was in the wrong but the suit sucked up a lot of Lionel's resources in the 90's and forced them to bankruptcy. After that there are a few more suits over stolen loco plans that Lionel eventually lost.

MTH is also part of the reason that sound decoders have been slow to advance until recently. They patented sound features that are a basic part of DCC, keeping others from using the features and improving sound decoders. That suit is now over and as a result, Digitrax and a few others are now moving forward with new sound product that they have had designed for a couple years now waiting for the final decsion.

There is an MTH centric listing of the events here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTH_Electric_Trains
There was an article favoring the Lionel side in Forbes magazine at one point.
 

I hate to advise you of this but intellectual property, such as patents, is haute business in the information age. If MTH owned the patent, well it's an asset they can protect, and a product they have to sell to other manufacturers. It's called licensing (he said sarcastically). Of course, the fact that they stood up to Uncle Pete, as much as I like MTH for that, is kind of a double standard.

Same goes for Lionel. If they were silly enough to throw their eggs in one basket with one manufacturer and not get a non-compete clause in the contract, then perhaps it was time for them to go, being the clueless business dinosaur they were. MTH just expedited the process.

As far as the 'toy scale' comment... I thought that's what O scale is, what Lionel was, etc. Aren't all the scales toys? They sure aren't 1:1 so...

[Denver Road Doug]

Yes, Al Gore invented the Internet, MTH invented model railroading, and I invented fire.

Anybody with a bored lawyer can "collect" intellectual property from small companies that simply cannot afford litigation to defend their rights.  Just because it's "haute business" doesn't mean it's right.

[sizemore]

All I can say on this topic; my Dad worked for MTH for almost 8 years (IIRC) and he stated "Don't be surprised if you see stuff from MTH in N."

The S.

[asarge]

Oh brother. The letters MTH brings out the most silly arguments.

I wouldn't be surprised to see MTH tackle N at some point. But not until they either give-up or make a stand in HO. (Whoa it's snowing in NE Georgia in late March) anyway, the pricing strategy is not going to go well for them in HO. Everybody that try's the "premium product, premium pricing" strategy has either had to change it. get out or become very much a mior piece of the pie. But they have to try something. O scale sales have been way down in the last year and a half.

[unclepete20]

I was at the hobby shop the other day, some guy came in with 2 MTH units. They had all sorts of random problems when they placed them on the track. First 1 woud start up on DC, but switch it to DCC it would run. The other one would work on dcc and dc but it wouldnt reverse on DCC. go figure guy said screw it, i paid 250 bucks for these, i would be better with some atherns or BLI's. As mant engines i see in the o scale side going in for repair, and i cant see n scalers putting up with that.

[Mark5]

Re: Speculation about MTH + N ... I'm not worried about it.

But, I guess this topic is overdue for it's quarterly flogging

 ;D

[bicknell]

Regarding MTH's issues with Lionel, it seems to me both sides were rather stupid in that and I see nothing to make me think ill of either company.

However, on the patent front I see something different.  The patents seem broad, and seem to cover a lot of existing ideas.  A good summary is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soundtraxx/message/5670.  The QSI lawsuit was just the beginning, note that as recently as a few months ago they filed against Broadway Limited, http://ogaugewatch.com/2009/11/lawsuit-filed-by-mth-against-broadway-limited.html

Least that's not enough, there are lawsuits with Korea Brass, and QSI.  Quick pop quiz, how is Neil Young involved with MTH lawsuits (you may be surprised!).

I dunno if this is just savvy business on MTH's part, or if they are the demons people make them out to be.  Reading the little I have on the lawsuits it really appears to me all sides acted fairly stupid.  Take the much liked UP settlement, well, it looks as if UP didn't have all of its trademark ducks in a row, MTH's lawyers called them on it and then worked out a settlement.  It was as much about beating UP as it was about UP beating themselves.

All I know is this, someone is paying for all the lawyers and settlements.  That someone is, ultimately, the model buying public.  None of this is good for the modeler, even if it is good for some of the companies involved.  I would be extremely reluctant to buy anything from MTH at this point.

[sirenwerks]

Yes, Al Gore invented the Internet, MTH invented model railroading, and I invented fire.

Anybody with a bored lawyer can "collect" intellectual property from small companies that simply cannot afford litigation to defend their rights.  Just because it's "haute business" doesn't mean it's right.

Since morals are a collective ideal, and the US is fraught with this sort of activity, one could say it's part of our moral fabric and acceptable. Whether it should be acceptable or not draws down to ethics, the personal right and wrong. And that's well, personal.

IMO, I find it refreshing for a MRR manufacturer to be that savvy as to deliberately take such a tactic, in contrast to the blithering mom and pop operations that come and go from their own cluelessness, unable to muster even a business plan, much less follow one. It doesn't stroke my ethics the right way per se, but it is refreshing to see someone thinking about it carefully.

I mean, look at Walthers. They're like the largest of Mom and Pops. How they ever survived, I don't know. I surmise though that their business savvy is thinning as it passes down the genetic line. Maybe they should hire JR to run the business?