MTL 60' RPO looks great

[David Leonard]

Now...where's my jug of SP MOW Grey

Joe, you may need to jug of something else before this is over....Seriously, that's a great looking car. I second Mark's suggestion of offering modernized (e.g. w/AC) versions of coaches and sleepers, etc.

[JoeD]

All of our full length Heavyweights...as of now...are AC versions.   My MOW fleet needs to stay cool so there was only one choice there  ;D

Joe

[Mark5]

All of our full length Heavyweights...as of now...are AC versions.   My MOW fleet needs to stay cool so there was only one choice there  ;D

Joe

I think that is cool.

[JoeD]

If we can get some economy by utilizing the same cores...ends, roofs etc then that gets passed on to the consumer.  The 2-4 configuration allows me to do the 3-3 on that side and not have to worry about window shutoffs leaving marks that end up flashing in other tooling.  We get hogging when the window plugs press up against the core in the molds...well if you have a window on another side slide..or version that splits that dent in the metal, even if it's only hundreds of thousands deep, you get flashing and it's difficult to clean out runs of window openings.  The 3-3 side fits over the 2-4 side...windows line up and any hogging will be on the back side of a wall on the new cars.  As for the swing arm on the doors...another tool, assembly fixture, paint mask and additional cost.  Maybe on the 3-3 or other versions I'd like to do, that can be addressed...I'd like to see it separate as well.

Joe

[Sokramiketes]

As for the swing arm on the doors...another tool, assembly fixture, paint mask and additional cost.  Maybe on the 3-3 or other versions I'd like to do, that can be addressed...I'd like to see it separate as well.
Joe

Can you expand on this reasoning?   The swing arm is going to be molded on the car side.  So you're arguing reasons as to why this is the case?

Another tool:  It can't be cut into the tool for the stir-up steps and brake wheel?  Seems like the same material would be appropriate, similar parts cross sections, etc.

Assembly fixture: To plug a detail part into premolded holes?  Worst case, why can't it be modeler applied like the reefer hatch struts or the tank car placards?  That way, the modeler could apply it in the proper orientation too.  With it molded in, the RPO can be run in only one direction.

Paint Mask:  Huh?  I have no idea what the paint mask would be for.  Mold in color or leave it black, either way, it wouldn't need a mask unless it was on a sprue with parts that were to be painted other colors.  In fact, with the depth of the one molded into the car side, it seems like painting and printing efforts would be much easier if it wasn't in the way on the car side.

Additional cost:  Well, tooling time would increase, slight amount of plastic increase, assembly time or packaging time.  This is the only arguement that makes sense to me so far.  

[up1950s]

I also agree that the Mail catcher should have either been a separate part or entirely left off so the wisher of one could put one on while eating a sandwich . Having to de-detail this for the better look is so 1960's . A great car with one very poor decision on one part IMO . Just having the parts that goes across the door as separate parts so there is air behind them would have been better . 

[hegstad1]

The pre production model looks great but I still have to wonder why the first HW out of the gate would be a somewhat oddball car - Jerry Laboda, an extremely knowledgable passenger car resource posted this on A board with regard to the prototype....

The prototype is very limited and it is not at all a common car. The rather the car represents a USRA prototype with only a few being built to this design. Owners are:

C&O 103, 104 (ex-PM 105, 106) ACF 1917
GTW 9683 - 9685, 9695, 9696. 9699 (three windows on both sides on one end, two windows on both sides on the other end)
GN 23 - 36 (three windows on both sides of the car, two sets of windows adjacent to the doors)
M&StL 750, 751 PCM 1914
MKT 31, 32 (ex-2901, 2900) (three windows on both sides of the car, two sets of windows adjacent to the doors)
N&W 1100-series (number series unclear; three windows on both sides of the car, two sets of windows adjacent to the doors)
RF&P 102, 103 (only road with more USRA RPOs than other, 105 being the other type)

Now; harkining back to discussion we had here about how companies choose their offerings, I can't understand why MT would choose such an obscure prototype for their first car; othern than to wonder if someone on the product development team 'personally wanted" this model....

If they were bent on an RPO (in and of itself an odd choice - express baggage or coach would have been a safer bet) then why an obscure one ?

I don't get it....... I appreciate any HW's and will buy one in GN and one to bash but the limited appeal of this car in it's as delivered liveries make me wonder......

I believe this car is more common than you think.  The Northern Pacific had eight of them (correct window arrangement) and the CB&Q had some too. 

Andrew Hegstad

[TiVoPrince]

Coast Mail
is going to need more than a few...

[JoeD]

Arguing is such a harsh word before my first cup of coffee  ;D  kidding.

Actually I lobbied for them to be separate in the design meetings, but the additional costs associated made the decision.  Some times you win, sometimes you loose.

Sure, sometimes gang molds work and those could have been included. But in order to control flash and uniform injection the policy here is to do each part in it's own mold.  That also prevents the loss of all the other parts if the mold crashes...only one part needs to be repaired vs a large number.  When a pin gets crushed in a 5 ton press, the whole mold is toast and your shut down for months replacing everything.  Also with family molds you tend to get more flashing...it's a subtle thing, but I've seen it in play and we can't afford to spend time trimming flash from small parts.

As for assembly, the parts have to be compression fit, or very least an interference fit to stay in place.  Smaller parts are made from engineering plastics and and when pressed into styrene car sides will compress in the center of the pin and slightly mushroom on the back side.  Again, this is something you need a scope to see, but it holds the parts in place.  To assemble those parts by hand you need to press all the attachment pins at the same time or you flex the part and get distortion or color shift.  Bend a small part and you will see some discoloration...and if those parts are painted, you get chipping. The other big threat is screwing up a painted and decorated shell on that last operation...Assembly has no sense of humor when that happens...trust me!  So to be safe and make the process as predictable as possible we make assembly fixtures for everything.  Different people are on the line doing different tasks from day to day...we don't have time to school everyone on the particulars of each small part...sorta has to be plug and play.

Painting fixtures, while not so much applicable to this part if it were in engineering plastic, need to be made to hold the parts during and after painting.  When you consider how many small parts go into a single run, you have to make things, even simple wood paint sticks, in mass quantities....time and money again.  This part, if done separately, I would have done in styrene so we could paint it.  Styrene does not like small spaces and has a difficult time being molded for something like that.  It is brittle and shrinks a ton.  But they need to be the same color as the sides of the car, and being done in engineering plastics would be tinted plastic and as glossy as the side frames folks want to see roughed up.  They'd stick out big time and you couldn't paint them without chipping when being handled.

And most importantly...when we leave parts off for the modeler to assemble we tend to get a lot of flack for it.  Sometimes, like with the HON3 cars, the parts are particularly difficult to install by hand and I want to avoid as much of that as well. 

None of this by itself seems like a good reason for the end result, but taken in total...the decision is kinda already made for you.  Like I noted before, I want to revisit this on the next set of sides, maybe we can figure out a new way to approach this...frankly I want to have some of my doors open too.

Thanks for asking!

Joe

As for the swing arm on the doors...another tool, assembly fixture, paint mask and additional cost.  Maybe on the 3-3 or other versions I'd like to do, that can be addressed...I'd like to see it separate as well.
Joe

Can you expand on this reasoning?   The swing arm is going to be molded on the car side.  So you're arguing reasons as to why this is the case?

Another tool:  It can't be cut into the tool for the stirrup steps and brake wheel?  Seems like the same material would be appropriate, similar parts cross sections, etc.

Assembly fixture: To plug a detail part into remolded holes?  Worst case, why can't it be modeler applied like the reefer hatch struts or the tank car placards?  That way, the modeler could apply it in the proper orientation too.  With it molded in, the RPO can be run in only one direction.

Paint Mask:  Huh?  I have no idea what the paint mask would be for.  Mold in color or leave it black, either way, it wouldn't need a mask unless it was on a spree with parts that were to be painted other colors.  In fact, with the depth of the one molded into the car side, it seems like painting and printing efforts would be much easier if it wasn't in the way on the car side.

Additional cost:  Well, tooling time would increase, slight amount of plastic increase, assembly time or packaging time.  This is the only argument that makes sense to me so far.  

[Sokramiketes]

Sure, sometimes gang molds work and those could have been included. But in order to control flash and uniform injection the policy here is to do each part in it's own mold.  That also prevents the loss of all the other parts if the mold crashes...only one part needs to be repaired vs a large number.  When a pin gets crushed in a 5 ton press, the whole mold is toast and your shut down for months replacing everything.  Also with family molds you tend to get more flashing...it's a subtle thing, but I've seen it in play and we can't afford to spend time trimming flash from small parts.

This corporate decision of inefficiency is part of why it costs more to manufacture here than in China.  The whole mold is generally not toast when a pin gets crushed, repairs can be made to the affected area.   

As for assembly, the parts have to be compression fit, or very least an interference fit to stay in place.  Smaller parts are made from engineering plastics and and when pressed into styrene car sides will compress in the center of the pin and slightly mushroom on the back side.  Again, this is something you need a scope to see, but it holds the parts in place.  To assemble those parts by hand you need to press all the attachment pins at the same time or you flex the part and get distortion or color shift.  Bend a small part and you will see some discoloration...and if those parts are painted, you get chipping. The other big threat is screwing up a painted and decorated shell on that last operation...Assembly has no sense of humor when that happens...trust me!  So to be safe and make the process as predictable as possible we make assembly fixtures for everything.  Different people are on the line doing different tasks from day to day...we don't have time to school everyone on the particulars of each small part...sorta has to be plug and play.

Sorry, but someone is feeding you a line.  Plenty of people have installed Kato mail hooks, with a pair of pins, without bending the part enough to discolor the part, by pressing in one pin at a time.  The installation would be hampered by any assembly fixture I can picture... and pressing in a delrin part by hand is not going to do any damage to an otherwise finished model.  And round-pin-in-round-hole should be a 15 second lesson for most any lineworker...

Painting fixtures, while not so much applicable to this part if it were in engineering plastic, need to be made to hold the parts during and after painting.  When you consider how many small parts go into a single run, you have to make things, even simple wood paint sticks, in mass quantities....time and money again.  This part, if done separately, I would have done in styrene so we could paint it.  Styrene does not like small spaces and has a difficult time being molded for something like that.  It is brittle and shrinks a ton.  But they need to be the same color as the sides of the car, and being done in engineering plastics would be tinted plastic and as glossy as the side frames folks want to see roughed up.  They'd stick out big time and you couldn't paint them without chipping when being handled.

Painting fixtures are one thing, you said Paint Mask before.  I would not suggest ever trying to run an N scale mail hook in styrene.  And actually, most heavyweight mail hooks that I can picture are black, so you wouldn't need a mask OR a fixture.

And most importantly...when we leave parts off for the modeler to assemble we tend to get a lot of flack for it.  Sometimes, like with the HON3 cars, the parts are particularly difficult to install by hand and I want to avoid as much of that as well. 

None of this by itself seems like a good reason for the end result, but taken in total...the decision is kinda already made for you.  Like I noted before, I want to revisit this on the next set of sides, maybe we can figure out a new way to approach this...frankly I want to have some of my doors open too.

Thanks for asking!

Joe

Lots of things in this industry have been done already, no need to always be reinventing the wheel.  Have fun bringing this info back to your next design meeting.

[oakcreekco]

Skibbie, the latest numbers from several sources put manufacturing in China at a "not much less" than USA manufactured product. It ain't what it used to be for "added margin".

Pins don't have "brains", and where they end up in a mold can vary, and so can the damage when this happens.

Having a "corporate policy" of one mold per part is as Joe stated, isn't that bad of an idea. I'm sure that they found out the hard way.

As far as your comment "corporare decision of inefficiency" and the fact that this costs more is really pretty funny. Look at another company, which I won't name,  and they decide to have each "run" with xxx units extra to cover for goofs that they usually have.

Sure, they have great customer service, "send it back, and we'll send you a new one", but this isn't "costing anyone less $$"

Looks like MTL has a model plan, and models, that you just don't really care for. Fair enough, but at least they have a "model plan", and it's worked out for them, and many modelers over the years.

With Joe hanging out here, it's apparent that he wants "good" input to move MTL into the future in a different way.

IMO, he's listening to a lot. More than "alot" in some ways.

[tom mann]

Guys, let's continue to give Joe constructive criticism that can actually be useful to take back to corporate, and not argue with him.  He obviously wants input, let's not piss him off.

[Chris333]

I think when people don't speak up about things they may keep doing it the same way. I'd have to see the car in person to know how it really looks, but yeah Kato did the catcher as a separate part. I believe you can buy it separately as well.

[Sokramiketes]

Skibbie, the latest numbers from several sources put manufacturing in China at a "not much less" than USA manufactured product. It ain't what it used to be for "added margin".

I'd be interested in reading the sources mentioned, please point me in their direction.  I'm still seeing simplified models coming from the USA and models with value-added features at the same MSRP coming from China.  So there must be some difference.

Pins don't have "brains", and where they end up in a mold can vary, and so can the damage when this happens.

Never said that, but the pins are only so long.  If you have a large parts mold with several shut offs, it's unlikely to damage the whole thing.  If it's steel, portions may have to be rewelded and recut.  If it's brass or aluminum, a section would be machined out and replaced with a new slug.  And regardless of having one big mold or several smaller molds, the damaged portion is going to need to be fixed in either case, right?

Having a "corporate policy" of one mold per part is as Joe stated, isn't that bad of an idea. I'm sure that they found out the hard way.

As far as your comment "corporare decision of inefficiency" and the fact that this costs more is really pretty funny. Look at another company, which I won't name,  and they decide to have each "run" with xxx units extra to cover for goofs that they usually have.

What's funny? Both companies have a plan... if the parts are cheap to run, then you can deal with a certain amount of waste.  Especially in an industry this small.  We're not talking about the manufacture of pop cans here.

Sure, they have great customer service, "send it back, and we'll send you a new one", but this isn't "costing anyone less $$"

Looks like MTL has a model plan, and models, that you just don't really care for. Fair enough, but at least they have a "model plan", and it's worked out for them, and many modelers over the years.

I must be misreading what you wrote, because you seem to be implying that MTL "at least has a plan" as if other companies don't have plans of their own?

With Joe hanging out here, it's apparent that he wants "good" input to move MTL into the future in a different way.

IMO, he's listening to a lot. More than "alot" in some ways.

I'm not sure why he's here yet, but as long as he's listening to input and presenting information, then we can have a discussion about it.  Sometimes you'll get a straight answer out of him, and other times he'll tell you it would take 300 hits to pad print the frames on a Z scale dome car.   

[oakcreekco]

Skibb, ain't going to "debate" the "debate". If you feel that you're correct with your thinking and your comments, then that's all that really matters