Let the Games Begin! MR opens the door for reader reviews...

[wm3798]

If you're a subscriber to Model Railroader, they've opened a new section on their website where readers can submit reviews of products that haven't been covered by their staff.

I haven't looked at the process yet, but I can't imagine they'll let the unwashed masses exercise much freedom of speech.  It might be fun for those of us who can to see how far the envelope can be pushed...

<EDIT>  Just looked it over... Mostly HO stuff so far, but some of the comments are pretty straightforward...  They do post your full name with your comments, as well as any responses to the review, so that should keep it pretty clean.  Looks like it's only been on the air for less than a month.  If you get their e-mail newsletter, there's a link that takes you to the review page.

Lee

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Oooh!!! Someone PLEASE lambast the LL GP38-2 for me.
I'm still kinda pissed about those!

[wm3798]

Tell you what, write it up and I'll post it for you.
When Walthers' jack booted thugs show up at my door, just remember I took one for the team!

Norm De Plume

[up1950s]

I think that is a safe way for the truth to be told , however , all replies can't be published , so which ones MR does publish is MR's choice . It , however , keeps MR hands clean , and eliminates the conflict of interest that before existed between the adverser of goods , and the reviewer of their product . So MR can wright up a positive spun review , and publish a readers rebuttal , whereby the truth is then told , and the worth of MR is increased , and sales of the mag go up .

[Dave V]

If nothing else I hope this means we'll have more N scale reviews at our disposal.

I could probably write up a few items myself one of these days.  After the doctoral disertation... :

[victor miranda]

I think that is a safe way for the truth to be told , however , all replies can't be published , so which ones MR does publish is MR's choice . It , however , keeps MR hands clean , and eliminates the conflict of interest that before existed between the adverser of goods , and the reviewer of their product . So MR can wright up a positive spun review , and publish a readers rebuttal , whereby the truth is then told , and the worth of MR is increased , and sales of the mag go up .

If all REVIEWS can't be published, then it is a worthless feature.
simply because they will face flak for suppressing any views that are not their own.
(the 'truth' good or bad does not absolve them(mr) of the appearance of bias)

all rebuttals are reviews. 
MR needs to allow both reader reviews and any comments.
without any comments from MR....
for it to have any realistic value.
and they need to state that it is a free product opinion place
and that it may contain adult opinions...

free place or useless....

v miranda


 

[DKS]

I think that is a safe way for the truth to be told , however , all replies can't be published , so which ones MR does publish is MR's choice . It , however , keeps MR hands clean , and eliminates the conflict of interest that before existed between the adverser of goods , and the reviewer of their product . So MR can wright up a positive spun review , and publish a readers rebuttal , whereby the truth is then told , and the worth of MR is increased , and sales of the mag go up .

If all REVIEWS can't be published, then it is a worthless feature.
simply because they will face flak for suppressing any views that are not their own.
(the 'truth' good or bad does not absolve them(mr) of the appearance of bias)

all rebuttals are reviews. 
MR needs to allow both reader reviews and any comments.
without any comments from MR....
for it to have any realistic value.
and they need to state that it is a free product opinion place
and that it may contain adult opinions...

free place or useless....

v miranda

Value cannot be placed on the quantity of content alone; it will have little worth if it becomes a free-for-all, like the A-board, for instance, where things can quickly snowball as the "reviewers" post increasingly personal and decreasingly relevant "rebuttals." The Walthers/Life-Like 0-8-0 "review" comes to mind...

[3rdrail]

Reviews pointing out shortcomings of models will never appear. Don't ask how I know... This has been available to subscribers all of this year, so it's not new.

I think MR's attitude is "we'll accept praise of a model, but if you have a complaint or wish to point out an inaccuracy, do that directly with the manufacturer."

[CVSNE]

Reviews pointing out shortcomings of models will never appear. Don't ask how I know... This has been available to subscribers all of this year, so it's not new.

I think MR's attitude is "we'll accept praise of a model, but if you have a complaint or wish to point out an inaccuracy, do that directly with the manufacturer."

I can't speak for now, but when I worked at Kalmbach I never had anyone (with one exception I've already detailed) tell me what to say in a review, how to say it, or what product to review.  Some people equate "product review" with "S#&t all over this model" - that often doesn't make a lot of sense.
The more subtle clue is "if this wasn't reviewed, why not?"

That said, I don't make any purchasing decisions based on MR reviews and haven't in years.  That has nothing to do with the content or tone of the reviews, it's simply a matter of the magazine doesn't review any of the kinds of products I've been buying.

But to throw out accusations of "conflict of interest" - and then focus that beam directly at MR - is patently unfair.

Marty

[3rdrail]

Marty (CVSNE), you and I and talking about two different things. You are talking about the reviews that magazine staffers prepare, while I am talking about the comments that Kalmbach now permits subscribers to post under the staffer's reviews on the Model Railroader website.

And I am not talking about reviews that verbally defecate on the model, but those that point out prototype inaccuracies, fit and finish problems and the like. BTW I agree that such should be first addressed to the manufacturer.

[CVSNE]

Understood, and I apologize for the confusion.

Marty

[wm3798]

Well, here's an example... 
It covers the Bachmann HO Berkshire... submitted by a fellow named Luke Renish
Bachmann's HO scale Berkshire is a great engine. First, it has a good level of detail, including bell, whistle, mars light (comes with undecorated NKP style or NKP 759), working front coupler, and green painted cab. The running gear is execellent [ sic] and the motor is quiet and smooth. It will pull about 9 to 12 free-rolling cars on level track. The bad part about it is the packaging the decoder. The decoder is only a 2 function one and the packaging is plastic.

Not exactly thorough, and his comment about the decoder isn't particularly glowing.

Jim Slack responds with:
9 to 12 cars seems rather pathetic.
That was posted May 8, and it hasn't been yanked.  Seems like they're keeping an open mind, but they include this note:
Please keep your feedback thoughtful, on-topic and respectful. Offensive language, personal attacks, or irrelevant comments may be deleted.
I suppose to keep it from becoming a free-for-all.

Now Bachmann isn't generally regarded as the "hand that feeds," so let's look at the review of Mother Walther's HO modulars...  This is an excerpt from the review by Ed W. (somehow he gets away with just a last initial...  Maybe the W stands for... nah. Couldn't be... anyway, read on...

First, I'd like to clear up some misconceptions about what you can and cannot do with these kits. On the downside, you must purchase several different kits just to complete a single building. I've read threads on this and other forums about how it might be nice to buy the wall pieces to throw together a building or two. This is not possible as viewed from my initial exposure to the product. You must purchase a minimum of three (3) kits to complete any type of building (walls, roof and wall colums/caps). These kits are not cheap. List price for each is around $10, meaning you'll drop a quick $30 just to get started. In my case, I had a particular set of structures in mind so I purchased five (5) kits from a LHS that had them discounted to ~$9 a kit. So, at this point, I'm out around $50 (tax included)! Yikes!

I think these comments strike at the heart of what many modelers feel about Walthers...  Overpriced.  The date of the post isn't offered, but the first response was posted May 11, so it's been up for about a week.

So, again, it looks like this might be interesting to watch.  If they hold to their disclaimer about only deleting personal attacks and irrelevant posts, this could be a valuable resource for both providing solid reviews for N scale products, as well as more obscure releases.  The rebuttal feature, if policed adequately but not with a heavy hand, can also be informative.  As with all things internet, a grain of salt will likely be required, but I think this is a good move for MR.  Limiting it to subscribers may be a bit draconian, but I can understand the marketing aspect of it.

If I stumble across anything else I think you might be interested in, I'll be sure to pass it along.
Lee

[victor miranda]

I removed the clutter...

Value cannot be placed on the quantity of content alone; it will have little worth if it becomes a free-for-all, like the A-board, for instance, where things can quickly snowball as the "reviewers" post increasingly personal and decreasingly relevant "rebuttals." The Walthers/Life-Like 0-8-0 "review" comes to mind...

I think it funny that that thread is one of the most informative threads
about a new loco I have ever read.
I do not think anyone can read that thread and not know
exactly what they are buying if they get the model in question.

A good portion of that thread was spend making sure what was said was accurate.
Which is particularly my point that the 'reviews' are free and open or they are useless.

any attempt to moderate will be seen as censorship.

victor

[DKS]

I removed the clutter...

I think it funny that that thread is one of the most informative threads
about a new loco I have ever read...

...any attempt to moderate will be seen as censorship.

Then a degree of censorship is called for, IMO, when an otherwise useful exchange is bloated with, if I may use your term, "clutter." Without doubt, there was indeed much value in that thread. But a degree of careful moderation would have improved it substantially, with zero impact on its usefulness and accuracy, as it's difficult to justify the value of bickering. Such nonsense is more than just a waste of bandwidth; it creates a negative, counterproductive atmosphere. I almost didn't make it all the way through because of the sickening tone of some contributors; I'm sure others gave up long before they got to the useful parts. A few random samples...

No mike when I said we that referred to those of us with more than 1/2 a brain and a full spine.
For those whom expressed undue pleasure accepting manure, have at it a wallow away.

Blow it out your breezer Mike , you are the tired old wind bag here . All you do is complain about people , and state that whatever a manufacturer does is fine . You have contributed nothing in the way of trying to fix anything . All your comments are to purposely aggravate an issue in discussion .

ok so after reading all the bickering and complaining here, I have decided something, some of you just complain no mater what.

So .. Victor .. since your other thread with this nonsense got locked, I take it you are trying to get this one locked as well?

I am so fed up with this stuff. I don't know what to do. I've had two people cancel their orders based on the Atlas forum thread. I am at a point where it just does not seem worth it to even offer N Scale Steam anymore.

Care to name that diploma mill and reference some of your published works?

It used to be one had to have at least an MS to be that condescending.

What a classless post.

[victor miranda]

I removed the clutter...

I think it funny that that thread is one of the most informative threads
about a new loco I have ever read...

...any attempt to moderate will be seen as censorship.

Then a degree of censorship is called for, IMO, when an otherwise useful exchange is bloated with, if I may use your term, "clutter." Without doubt, there was indeed much value in that thread. But a degree of careful moderation would have improved it substantially, with zero impact on its usefulness and accuracy, as it's difficult to justify the value of bickering. Such nonsense is more than just a waste of bandwidth; it creates a negative, counterproductive atmosphere. I almost didn't make it all the way through because of the sickening tone of some contributors; I'm sure others gave up long before they got to the useful parts. A few random samples...

No mike when I said we that referred to those of us with more than 1/2 a brain and a full spine.
For those whom expressed undue pleasure accepting manure, have at it a wallow away.

Blow it out your breezer Mike , you are the tired old wind bag here . All you do is complain about people , and state that whatever a manufacturer does is fine . You have contributed nothing in the way of trying to fix anything . All your comments are to purposely aggravate an issue in discussion .

ok so after reading all the bickering and complaining here, I have decided something, some of you just complain no mater what.

So .. Victor .. since your other thread with this nonsense got locked, I take it you are trying to get this one locked as well?

I am so fed up with this stuff. I don't know what to do. I've had two people cancel their orders based on the Atlas forum thread. I am at a point where it just does not seem worth it to even offer N Scale Steam anymore.

Care to name that diploma mill and reference some of your published works?

It used to be one had to have at least an MS to be that condescending.

What a classless post.

ok. the clutter will have to stay....

Your post  gave a good chuckle.  I found myself wondering what you are complaining about?
You used a lot of the good lines from a small number of the posts in that thread.
and none of the truly nasty posts.

I promise you that at least one of those posters you have quoted would never have posted
anything at all if he thought that even a 'degree' of censorship existed.
such threads are often messy. and the important part is that there is enough
concern on the subject that they do make the effort to write and post.
I know I do not bother to write when I know my writing will be removed.

While you may not like some posts made in the name of 'review and rebuttal,' I know of no better way
to get to all the concerns and joys related to a product.
Any "degree of censorship" that might, perhaps, maybe stop a nasty post, will, without a doubt,
also stop a lot of good posts.

For the review threads to be worth anything, they can't really be moderated.

wanna give it a try?
go back to the atlas board and take your censor with you.
once you swing it(the censor) remove all my posts from the thread.
cause that is what would have happened.
v

edited to fix a typo