TheRailwire
General Discussion => Product Discussion => Topic started by: pjm20 on April 30, 2015, 05:58:31 PM
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BLI just announced a P70 and P70R in HO Scale. Is a N Scale version in our future!? I sure hope so, because I will need oodles upon oodles of these.
Dr. Dave, summon the sign of the Keystone.
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Well, I would say that folks need to email BLI and let them know of their interest... if enough support can be mustered it is a good possibility that they might do such for N as well.
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Maybe there will be an announcement at the PRR convention this weekend.
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A P70 would certainly make sense to release in 4 packs or 6 packs compared to the H32's. :?
If is not announced by November, I know what I'll be doing at Trainfest in Milwaukee... ;)
Then all they need is to do a K4! :D
Scott
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They could do a Heavy Pacific in N and use the chassis for a K4 :P
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If I've figured this BLI thing out, we'll get the sound-equipped water tank before we see any P70s or a K4.
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I still have high hopes for BLI
After the M1 comes out and we all buy them up they probably look at doing more.
It seems the cars have done well and I could use the multi packs especially for coal hoppers just haven't bought any because of the M1 and Intermountain F units that are coming. :drool:
I need to rank up so my hobby budget can go up. :D
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SPFs are funny. :lol:
I'd wager, if you tally all the prototypical models produced in N — whether considering the entire past 50 years OR just the 21st century years — that there have been more ready-to-run PRR-specific models than any other road. Freight. Passenger. Motive power. Structures. In just the last 5 years alone, I can count nearly 20 PRR-specific models. And I'm counting the tooled models only, not the numerous paint schemes that have appeared on them.
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SPFs are funny. :lol:
I'd wager, if you tally all the prototypical models produced in N — whether considering the entire past 50 years OR just the 21st century years — that there have been more ready-to-run PRR-specific models than any other road. Freight. Passenger. Motive power. Structures. In just the last 5 years alone, I can count nearly 20 PRR-specific models. And I'm counting the tooled models only, not the numerous paint schemes that have appeared on them.
Bryan,
You've made this argument before, and yes, there's truth to it. As an SPF I'm an outlier in that I agree with you that we're not realy in a position to complain relative to what's available in N for many other roads.
What you probably haven't considered, though, is that we N scale SPFs have seen every version of every single PRR prototype in every scheme and every era released in HO from locos to cabins and everything else...sometimes by multiple manufacturers!
We don't compare our availability to other N scalers like you might think. Instead we stare longingly at out HO colleagues that have only to open a few boxes and have a perfect PRR roster for any part of the railroad in any era. So--right or wrong--the fact that you don't have a fraction of the New Haven equipment available in N scale that I do PRR N scale doesn't enter into my calculus when I see Walthers offering RB50s and N6bs RTR in every scheme and 3 companies making K4s.
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Bryan,
You've made this argument before, and yes, there's truth to it. As an SPF I'm an outlier in that I agree with you that we're not realy in a position to complain relative to what's available in N for many other roads.
What you probably haven't considered, though, is that we N scale SPFs have seen every version of every single PRR prototype in every scheme and every era released in HO from locos to cabins and everything else...sometimes by multiple manufacturers!
We don't compare our availability to other N scalers like you might think. Instead we stare longingly at out HO colleagues that have only to open a few boxes and have a perfect PRR roster for any part of the railroad in any era. So--right or wrong--the fact that you don't have a fraction of the New Haven equipment available in N scale that I do PRR N scale doesn't enter into my calculus when I see Walthers offering RB50s and N6bs RTR in every scheme and 3 companies making K4s.
Well said.
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As an example of Dave's point, Walthers Proto just announced their own run of P70s...
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+1 to Dave Vollmer's post/point
not to mention how much fewer are those produced in accuracy to prototype
lots of steam get a PRR decal or paint on tender but that does not really count
same with passenger and freight cars
many more with the PRR name that are not PRR accurate, or able to be made so
from a collect and run anything PRR, to a SPF who now knows a little more
knowledge about what to look for to be prototypical PRR
sincerely--
Gary
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... What you probably haven't considered, though, is that we N scale SPFs have seen every version of every single PRR prototype in every scheme and every era released in HO from locos to cabins and everything else...sometimes by multiple manufacturers!
We don't compare our availability to other N scalers like you might think. Instead we stare longingly at out HO colleagues that have only to open a few boxes and have a perfect PRR roster for any part of the railroad in any era. So--right or wrong--the fact that you don't have a fraction of the New Haven equipment available in N scale that I do PRR N scale doesn't enter into my calculus when I see Walthers offering RB50s and N6bs RTR in every scheme and 3 companies making K4s.
Surely you see the irony in your statement, yes? :trollface: :D
Put yourself on the other side of the Hudson and apply the same criteria: There is and has been a TON of New Haven models produced in HO over the last six decades — in plastic, in brass, in hybrid composites — you name it, it's been done, and it continues to be done. It rivals the number of Pennsy prototypes that have been manufactured. That probably is a common scenario across many roads, albeit not to the extent of Pennsy and New Haven. So I would think that most N scalers experience "HO envy" at some point in their modeling years.
So, extending that reality, when there is an expansive selection of Pennsy prototypes in N scale that is far more extensive than for most other roads, Pennsy modelers aren't being persecuted when it's pointed out they have riches well beyond those who model other roads. There's nothing wrong with wanting more. But there's a little bit of "entitlement syndrome" to not realize that modelers of other roads are not in as fortunate a position. At least, over the decades, from the early years of N scale, there HAS been a K-4 Pacific, and there HAS been a P70 coach ... and a G36 gondola, and an N5 caboose, and an N6 caboose, and a GG1 electric, and a 10-6 roomette, and a sleeper-observation, and and and. That's just the early years, and not counting the dozens of Pennsy prototypes available today (with more coming). It's almost as if what Pennsy N scale modelers have been blessed with over the years isn't appreciated, or it isn't realized how great they have it — especially when the prototype has been extinct for nearly half a century. So, the lack of a newly tooled K-4 and P70 ... maybe I feel your pain a tiny bit, but you sure seem to have most of the jacks and the marbles in the toy chest.
Conversely, I'm happy just to have some models of New Haven prototypes available and more on the way, as there weren't any 25 years ago.
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Bryan,
You're unique in that as a manufacturer of Eastern prototypes you're cognizant of the availability in N scale of prototypes for a wide range of roads.
I'm largely ignorant of what's missing in N scale for most roads other than PRR, PC, and CR (and the Colorado Midland, which is, actually, everything, as not a single correct car or locomotive for the Midland has ever been done in N scale :D) as I imagine are most SPFs.
I'm not saying that other N scalers have no right to be jealous of what SPFs have in N...in fact I am often the first and most vocal of the SPFs on the Railwire to acknowledge how good we have it, and that now is the golden age of PRR in N scale (in a large part through your own efforts, Bryan--thank you). I can't speak for this idea that SPFs are ungrateful...I don't see it. We see us making our needs known to the manufacturers. I guess others see it as complaining or lack of gratitude. Dunno. Can't please everybody.
Surely you see the irony in your statement, yes? :trollface: :D
No I don't... I guess it's supposed to be obvious to me but I'm missing it, unless you're just saying that you and everyone else in N feels the same way. If that's the case, I don't think it's ironic...maybe just a little myopic.
But fundamentally there's no reason to expect that BLI will announce a P70 in N scale any time soon.
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The disparity between N and HO isn't just a PRR phenomenon, its probably more noticeable because of the relatively large market in either scale.
Even a small road like Soo Line or Missabe have a smorgasbord of products in HO. Enough to make me look with envy in my eyes...
Although its also part of the appeal of working in N... There's still some modeling frontiers to cross!
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... I guess it's supposed to be obvious to me but I'm missing it, unless you're just saying that you and everyone else in N feels the same way. If that's the case, I don't think it's ironic...maybe just a little myopic....
Myopic is a more apt assessment, I concur.
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And, FWIW, I have the opposite problem. So much Pennsy is coming out so quickly that in the pre-order world I sometimes have to say no. I've been in N scale for only 13 years and even so it wasn't like that just a few years ago.
If you're going to have a supply problem, I suggest it's much better to have too many choices than not enough.
Choosing a turn-of-the-century prototype road that was a victim of World War I (thanks, USRA... :facepalm:) for my alter-ego has been very humbling. Everything I do must be a compromise and must involve resin kits and custom decals. Even finding proper hard-rock mine structures in N scale isn't easy. Between the ME kit and the Campbell kit (I have both) that's about it.
So I am living the dichotomy of having an embarrassment of riches (and yet wanting still more!) on one side of the basement with a hardscrabble compromise (and little hope of more) on the other.
And yet both are fun for different reasons.
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Bitching about not having things is how we get more things. Maybe that's why we have it so good.
BLI is doing a certain streamlined steam locomotive in HO, BTW. No N scale announcements today. We just need to nag more manufacturers in a positive constructive way.
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When it comes to locomotives at least, I still think the PRR has been massively underrepresented
given its prevalence in the US railroad system and its popularity among modelers.
Curiously, as much "PRR" stuff as there has been in N Scale, when I modeled the PRR,
and being a steam modeler, I was always very frustrated by the fact that there were
zero steam locomotives. The Trix K4 and B6 do not count. They are long out of production,
and do not remotely keep up with current performance levels unless you do serious drivetrain
overhauls on them (like myself and many others have done).
Diesels? There have been some F, RS and E units, but so have there been for many many other roads.
For motive power, I always thought that with the massive popularity of the PRR,
its representation in the market place would be huge, but it certainly hasn't been.
"PRR Steam" has meant slapping "Pennsylvania" on the side of other prototype engines.
(Like my ConCor Hudson, which I bought in "Pennsylvania".... but relettered to "New York Central")
I also think that the common practice of slapping "PRR" on any engine or piece of freight equipment
that comes out has made it appear that there are a lot more protoypically correct PRR pieces available
than there actually are. The PRR's popularity may have been its undoing in the N Scale marketplace
in that regard. "Slap PRR on everything because it sells.".... and as long as it sells, why make
an accurate K4.... or anything else for that matter?
The coming M1 is the first actual new PRR steam loco to appear on the market since the Trix K4 (in.. 1967?)
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Conversely, I'm happy just to have some models of New Haven prototypes available and more on the way, as there weren't any 25 years ago.
Well, not if you count strictly prototypical detail I guess, but the 5-axle C-liner came out in the late '60s. And didn't the NH have PAs? FA2s? S-2s? All of have been around for decades in N.
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Bitching about not having things is how we get more things. Maybe that's why we have it so good.
BLI is doing a certain streamlined steam locomotive in HO, BTW. No N scale announcements today. We just need to nag more manufacturers in a positive constructive way.
"Bitching" probably isn't the most productive method of achieving the desired results. Sometimes it comes across as being unappreciative of the models that are produced. Food for thought.
Regarding BLI and I assume your reference to the New Haven I-5 — Yes, they are on the third release of their HO model and posed to offer a handful of additional NH steamers as well. They should do well with all of them. I have an I-5 from the first release in a wall-mounted display case along with some other HO scale New Haven models. And it emphasizes my earlier point, that the "riches in HO" are not limited to PRR prototypes.
If a manufacturer produces an N model of a New Haven prototype, I'm grateful. But I see the illogic of lobbying for an esoteric model that has limited marketing appeal.
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Well, not if you count strictly prototypical detail I guess, but the 5-axle C-liner came out in the late '60s. And didn't the NH have PAs? FA2s? S-2s? All of have been around for decades in N.
True, the C-Liner, PA1 and FA1 were available in the 1970s, with the S-2 available in the late 1980s. Never deco'd for New Haven, but available to custom paint and print. Most of the early Pennsy models were available in Pennsy deco. The only early N scale model deco'd for New Haven that was moderately accurate was the Kadee 40' boxcar in the script herald scheme.
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When it comes to locomotives at least, I still think the PRR has been massively underrepresented
given its prevalence in the US railroad system and its popularity among modelers...
How many prototypical New Haven locomotives have there been in N, juxtaposed with the number of prototypical Pennsylvania locomotives? How many prototypical locomotives of the other eastern roads have there been, juxtaposed with those of the Pennsylvania? "Lack of Pennsy power" is a very hard argument to make to a non-Pennsy modeler, especially when you throw in all of the N brass models that have been imported.
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which version of the P70?
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which version of the P70?
Each manufacturer is doing two different versions. Early hot cars, ice air...can't remember.
"Bitching" probably isn't the most productive method of achieving the desired results. Sometimes it comes across as being unappreciative of the models that are produced. Food for thought.
Regarding BLI and I assume your reference to the New Haven I-5 — Yes, they are on the third release of their HO model and posed to offer a handful of additional NH steamers as well. They should do well with all of them. I have an I-5 from the first release in a wall-mounted display case along with some other HO scale New Haven models. And it emphasizes my earlier point, that the "riches in HO" are not limited to PRR prototypes.
Yes, I know. My comment was tongue in cheek, but the squeaky wheel gets the oil. Even at the PRR convention, the president stood up there and told us during the modeler's forum, let the manufacturers know we want. Do it in a polite manner. Never slam their products. Don't say dumb things that undermine the modeling committee's efforts. They referenced a story on how a manufacturer was doing an H class, and another was doing an L class. Some idiot wrote the L class manufacturer and said "doing and L class is stupid. Do an H class." So they dropped plans to do an L class and now there's two H classes and no L class.
We should petition FVM to do more and vote with our wallets. They did the Hiawatha. They said from the landscape suggests we'd get more stuff in N from smaller "indie" manufacturers instead of Kato, Walthers, etc.
I'm not referring to the I-5.
(http://www.americanmodels.com/_photos/k4bw.jpg)
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Since I'm NOT a Pennsy modeler, but notice that the K4 comes up quite regularly, a question:
How many other roads had locos with similar wheel spacings? Never mind the type of pilot/trailing trucks, or boiler/cab shape, or tender, just the basic mechanism? Would there be enough others that a K4 chassis could be repurposed for multiple models?
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Tried earlier to post with attached images, but we filled up the server again I think.
IB official are happy to say that Inland Empire Paper is making significant progress on their new paper mill facility. Once online, the Idaho Belt should see significant increasing in paper traffic with 10-12 outbound loaded paper shipments a day. Obviously, that amount of paper going out will require significant amounts of wood chips, chemicals, acid, additives, and coal coming in to the plant. Business should boom.
Progress is ongoing. With the nice weather, spray bombs could be used outside safely, though some leakage under the masking tape complicated matters on the new recovery boiler. The background is a simple 8-10 print on regular paper just to test an image. Thinking I may be able to get away with several photos cropped and mounted on the backdrop rather than a long collage or mural take continuous print.
(http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq108/ppfoten211/Mobile%20Uploads/20150504_001720_resized.jpg)
Lots more on my layout engineering thread.
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They referenced a story on how a manufacturer was doing an H class, and another was doing an L class. Some idiot wrote the L class manufacturer and said "doing and L class is stupid. Do an H class." So they dropped plans to do an L class and now there's two H classes and no L class.
I'm not calling you out personally, but this makes no sense. There has to be more to this story. How can one letter make that big of a deal? (unless a fat check was included). And I thought there was an L1 being done, I know I've seen photos, George somebody...
As far as the P70 goes, it isn't high on my want list, but the truck possibilities are interesting. I have a fondness for the old Lima/Model Power version. These were the cars I first started to kitbash/detail. Plus its a lot easier to hack on a $10 car than a $35 car. I've got about 10 cars I've worked on over the years, so for sentimental reasons I'm not looking to replace these. Unless these "new" p70's can be bought at fire sale prices, I'm probably not in the market.
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I'm not calling you out personally, but this makes no sense. There has to be more to this story. How can one letter make that big of a deal? (unless a fat check was included). And I thought there was an L1 being done, I know I've seen photos, George somebody...
As far as the P70 goes, it isn't high on my want list, but the truck possibilities are interesting. I have a fondness for the old Lima/Model Power version. These were the cars I first started to kitbash/detail. Plus its a lot easier to hack on a $10 car than a $35 car. I've got about 10 cars I've worked on over the years, so for sentimental reasons I'm not looking to replace these. Unless these "new" p70's can be bought at fire sale prices, I'm probably not in the market.
No problem here! There is, I was just giving you the gist of it. I heard a brief summary of the situation and distilled that down even further. The point is that on several occasions, a faction of uninformed, critical consumers poisoned the well. And this was also HO scale, not N.
To bring a P70 up to speed is a lot of work. There's so much to do. Plate 4 end windows, new trucks, underbody details, doors, steps, couplers, new trucks if you model anything out of the 30's (and those trucks are tough to find). New arch roofs, chiseling out the diamonds on the clerestory ones, adding roof vents, diaphragms, repaint, decal, letter...
For me, I'd rather just buy one that's right and save myself the time, shipping for extra parts from 3 different suppliers, and a kick in the nuts. :D
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Yes, but at the very least we do currently have a path to a modern P70.
There are other huge gaps in Pennsy availability, starting with anything steam. I agree with Max... The Minitrix stuff just barely counts and it needs so much work.
Now, if one models a road that used as-built USRA locos, then one is in much better shape.
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And this was also HO scale, not N.
Doh! :facepalm: I was racking my brain trying to figure out who announced the H. I knew it was too good...Talk about low hanging fruit.
I agree with Max... The Minitrix stuff just barely counts and it needs so much work.
+1
Pennsy and steam go together like spaghetti and meatballs. :drool: You can't think of one without the other.
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Yes, but at the very least we do currently have a path to a modern P70.
There are other huge gaps in Pennsy availability, starting with anything steam.
But we DO have a cattle car...with sounds! It's cool that it's out there. I'd put it on the bottom of a list of things we need/want, but it's cool it's there and likely isn't taking away from other stuff. They probably just "tacked it on" to their HO offering.
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... The point is that on several occasions, a faction of uninformed, critical consumers poisoned the well. And this was also HO scale, not N. ...
It happens in N also. The unfortunate occurrences are not limited to one scale.
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It happens in N also. The unfortunate occurrences are not limited to one scale.
Oh, I'm sure it happens in all scales, but in the specific instance of the story I heard, it was HO. I had to clarify because Towl1996 thought I was talking about N scale and the upcoming GHB brass L1.
Bryan, what are some of the more insane things customers have said to you? Has anyone asked you to do a K4?
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Since I'm NOT a Pennsy modeler, but notice that the K4 comes up quite regularly, a question:
How many other roads had locos with similar wheel spacings? Never mind the type of pilot/trailing trucks, or boiler/cab shape, or tender, just the basic mechanism? Would there be enough others that a K4 chassis could be repurposed for multiple models?
The Boston & Maine P4 has the same driver diameter/driver spacing as the K4.
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Oh, I'm sure it happens in all scales, but in the specific instance of the story I heard, it was HO. I had to clarify because Towl1996 thought I was talking about N scale and the upcoming GHB brass L1.
Bryan, what are some of the more insane things customers have said to you? Has anyone asked you to do a K4?
I haven't been asked regarding a K-4 or any type of motive power, most likely because ESM hasn't released a locomotive model so the assumption is that it would be a wasted request. But we've gotten requests for some prototypes that just aren't feasible, not for ESM to do anyway. I've been asked about Pennsy prototypes, most likely because two of our four tooled models are of Pennsy prototypes. And, the fact that we already have tooled two Pennsy cars is a detriment against tooling the G38/G39 cars to be honest. Not a deal-breaker, but a detriment nonetheless.
It definitely happens in all scales. I'm not at liberty to reveal specifics because it's privileged information that involves other manufacturers, but suffice to say that it happens enough that they disturbingly are not isolated incidents. Suffice to say, sometimes the modeling community is its own worst enemy.
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Bryan,
Seems to me, anyway, that anyone who deals with model railroaders knows that we have a disproportionate population of complete jackasses. Is there no way to "filter the clutter" as we might say in radar terms?
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Let me be the first to suggest a K4 from ESM! Haha! :trollface:
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Bryan,
Seems to me, anyway, that anyone who deals with model railroaders knows that we have a disproportionate population of complete jackasses. Is there no way to "filter the clutter" as we might say in radar terms?
Sadly no, because sometimes the "clutter" from said jackasses makes its way into the mainstream conscience with negative consequences. One of the downsides of the Internet. The estimate is that about 10% of the N scale consumer base is online, but that's enough to affect the outcome of projects.
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I'm late to respond because I am still recovering for the PRRT&HS annual meeting last weekend. The BLI HO P70 announcement came out a day or two prior, an it was hard walking down the hallways without getting slimed as you pass the HO SPFs.
However, in the model room there was a great exposition of PRR N scale work from Josh, Claus, and myself. Josh in particular brought in a ton of his excellent PRR N scale work. The HO guys were also drooling (I wish they would wear bibs) over my N scale Baldwin Transfer unit (kit from Shapeways and James Norris). That loco, which is on everyone's wish list, is not available in HO (except in brass that runs like crap and was available in the vendor room for $1,200).
Yes, N scale SPFs are relatively lucky and should be thankful, but yes we will also want more and more and these forums are here to enjoy the hobby and piss people off.
Bryan, I am looking forward to the Rapido NH Osgood Bradley cars and the FL9. I imagine that the B&M guys are also envious of you NH guys. Its all relative.
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Yes, it's all relative, but I have never posted about a perceived lack of available N scale New Haven models ... because "some" is better than "none" and there always are roads with fewer available models. I'm thankful for what is there, and if I want something badly enough, I will build it.
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I'll tell you what. I'll quit bellyaching for an RTR K4 up to 21st century standards, but it'll cost ya... My new deafening whine will be for an N scale Colorado Midland Hanrahan reefer!
(http://www.museumsyndicate.com/images/6/52539.jpg)
No one even does decals in N for this... :facepalm:
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Heh. In fact, Doug, Claus, and myself were the ONLY N scalers who had models in that room.
I alone accounted for nearly 30% of all models. Maybe I overdid it :facepalm:
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I'll tell you what. I'll quit bellyaching for an RTR K4 up to 21st century standards, but it'll cost ya... My new deafening whine will be for an N scale Colorado Midland Hanrahan reefer!
(http://www.museumsyndicate.com/images/6/52539.jpg)
No one even does decals in N for this... :facepalm:
You find me detailed blueprints and more photos of that beauty, and I'll forward it to my CAD guy to get started on right after the FM-class flatcar.
I'm a sucker for wood-sided reefers and thing looks too awesome for me to not consider making some.
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I'll tell you what. I'll quit bellyaching for an RTR K4 up to 21st century standards, but it'll cost ya... My new deafening whine will be for an N scale Colorado Midland Hanrahan reefer!
(http://www.museumsyndicate.com/images/6/52539.jpg)
No one even does decals in N for this... :facepalm:
You can use any of the old-time 36' reefer models as a core, etch new brass sides, and output decals on an Alps printer.
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(http://www.museumsyndicate.com/images/6/52539.jpg)
That looks right up Microtrains alley. Ride height, cartoonish looking man on paint scheme and a proto photo to shut the Railwire :ashat: up. I could see this as a runner pack. ;)
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You can use any of the old-time 36' reefer models as a core, etch new brass sides, and output decals on an Alps printer.
Yeah, well... Easy for you to say! :D
Actually, a Shapeways shell for an MDC/Athearn frame probably would be the way to go. Since this is a wood sided car with lots of scribing, I would think the rastering would be less of an issue.
Would still need decals made, though, but I actually do have side-on artwork. The Ute Indian with the Pikes Peak Route shield is full-color and the railroad name and car number are black with red drop-shadow.
....and the patent Railwire ThreaddriftTM is in full effect! :D
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(http://www.museumsyndicate.com/images/6/52539.jpg)
Is that an air conditioner on the roof?
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Is that an air conditioner on the roof?
It's where the ice was loaded.
Jason
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Is that an air conditioner on the roof?
Looks like a structure behind the car to me.
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Looks like a structure behind the car to me.
No, it's the loading hatch for the center ice bunker.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f7/Reefers-shorty-ATSF-CM-type-1898-cyc_ACF_builders_photo.jpg)
The AT&SF owned the Midland when these were purchased.
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2 prototypes, enough for BLI to do a run of 4 packs. :trollface:
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No, it's the loading hatch for the center ice bunker.
The AT&SF owned the Midland when these were purchased.
Well alrighty then. Center cupola reefers it is!
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I attended a lecture on the Midland at a local train show by a Midland historian (McFerland) and he discussed these Hanrahan cars a bit.
Seems they were a miserable failure on the plains and in the desert. The Colorado high country is really the only place they did work so that's why they remained in service on the Midland quite a bit longer than they did elsewhere on the AT&SF system. It seems obvious to me that having one center ice bunker is a whole lot less thermally efficient than having two end ice bunkers, but in the 1890s, they tried every idea no matter how stupid.
Oh, and yeah... I want RTR P70s for the Pennsy... :D
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I imagine that the B&M guys are also envious of you NH guys.
Why??? FL9? No, B&M never had them and never wanted them. OB coach? Same prototype for both NH and B&M.