TheRailwire
General Discussion => N and Z Scales => Topic started by: robert3985 on September 21, 2013, 10:01:52 PM
-
I'm seeing several posts referring to "fine" EZ Line from Berkshire Junction as being .003" in diameter.
However, according to their website (http://www.berkshirejunction.com/ezline.html#modelrailroad) it comes in two diameters, "Fine" at .010" dia., and "Heavy" at .020" dia.
As of yet, I am not aware of any flexible line that approaches .003" in diameter.
If anybody's got a micrometer or dial caliper, an actual measurement would be appreciated by all.
Photo 1 - Just to put it in perspective, here's a photo of one of my kitbashed CA-1's with actual .003" 6-ought black suture silk as smokejack support wires:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-RL1X7phXwGA/UclVcWO60lI/AAAAAAAACOs/zvEsHjwnMqw/s800/UP%2520CA-1%2520On%2520Park%2520City%2520Branch.jpg)
-
Since EZ Line is rubbery, is it possible that the person who measured it actually squished it in the caliper jaws while the reading was taken?
-
Since EZ Line is rubbery, is it possible that the person who measured it actually squished it in the caliper jaws while the reading was taken?
That's what I'm thinking. But, that's squishing it quite a bit.
Since it's the only stuff that's available, I'm planning on using it for stringing my utility poles which are alongside the tracks on my U.P. Mainlines, but first, I gotta get my utility poles finished since there's nothing out there that I'm happy with as far as appearance is concerned.
-
Wouldn't it also get thinner as you stretched it out?
Jon
-
Wouldn't it also get thinner as you stretched it out?
Jon
I think that would be quite a stretch. Perhaps we all went a bit off-kilter with the thread title that included "1/2-inch," which scales to about .003. I use nylon thread that mikes out to .003. Probably not as strong as silk, but pretty darn strong, and a huge "thing" (bobbin? Spool? Beer-can sized spool?) was about $7.00 plus shipping. Unless it's wound only two or three layers deep, there's got to be a zillion yards on the "thing."
And I absolutely love the stuff! It is not stretchy, but it can be drawn taut easily. I use multiple figure 8s to reinforce junctions of masts and yardarms, and it is still unobtrusive.
-
As a guitar player who uses .010 (light gauge) on the high E string, I can say for sure that .003 must be REALLY fine!
Mark in Oregon
-
As a guitar player who uses .010 (light gauge) on the high E string, I can say for sure that .003 must be REALLY fine!
Mark in Oregon
.003" is pretty fine. Only a bit coarser than one RCH, the finest measurement known to man.
-
.003" is pretty fine. Only a bit coarser than one RCH, the finest measurement known to man.
Unfortunately, RCHs are too short to be used for N scale wires. Unless, you braid them; but then they are too thick and the braids make the wire look bumpy. :lol:
-
RCH? Rectocolite Hémorragique? :trollface:
-
Unfortunately, RCHs are too short to be used for N scale wires. Unless, you braid them; but then they are too thick and the braids make the wire look bumpy. :lol:
Speaking from experience Peteski???? :D
-
What is the diameter of a hair from a gnat's a$$?
-
Speaking from experience Peteski???? :D
Why yes Robert! 8)
-
For those wanting very thin line, I found this one listed on a fishing site that gives actual diameters:
Sufix HercuLine Dyneema 8 lb test 0.001 inch
http://www.mels-place.com/Contents/ABCs_and_Goodies/Line_Diameters/line_diameters.htm (http://www.mels-place.com/Contents/ABCs_and_Goodies/Line_Diameters/line_diameters.htm)
Whether it would be usable for modeling purposes I have no idea, as I don't fish, and don't know what the stuff looks like.
-
It's clear, and doesn't like knots or tight loops. It's a pain to work with, as it's very springy and takes a lot of tension to straighten--too much tension for most poles. I gave my spool to a buddy who fishes. Stretched sprue might be a better choice.
-
I use Fly Tying thread used for tying trout/salmon flies. It comes in a lot of diameters and you can buy a bobbin to hold the spools. It works nice as you have control of the thread and you can use the weight of the bobbin to hold the tread tension while CAing the thread to the poles.
-
Pete: No, doesn't sound good for utility wires. Might be useful for wire or rod used as tension braces, as it sounds stronger than actual wires that fine.
I also have no idea where to buy the stuff, as the few online sites I checked from Google didn't actually have it...
-
Although it's hard to find, non-sterile braided suture silk, either black or uncolored, is excellent for modeling projects. One of the things it's required to do is retain knots, and run smoothly through tissue and the eyes of surgical needles, so it's smooth (usually wax-coated), consistent in diameter and it's available in 25 and 100 yard spools.
The sizes I like most are 6/0 or "six-ought" which is generally around .003" in diameter. I also like 7/0, which is a little over .002", but I ran out of it several years ago.
I bought the stuff because I was building ship models commercially and it is perfect for 1/8" scale sailing vessels, particularly for ratlines and seizing rope ends at deadeyes and blocks...because it holds knots so well, and doesn't fray...and doesn't need that application of beeswax to contain the fuzz as a lot of cotton ship model lines need (I used three-strand twisted cuttyhunk linen line for my rigging which doesn't "fuzz").
Prices vary a bit, from around 19 bucks for the 25 yard spool to app 37 bucks for the 100 yard spool.
I wouldn't use the stuff for rigging power lines because if you snag it, you'll tear out or break a pole.
EZ Line is near perfect for that app.
One thing for certain is that suture silk will last in model environment a long time, whereas maybe EZ Line will oxidize and get stiff over time (I don't know, but the elastic in my 5 year old cycling socks isn't so elastic any more).
Just sayin'
-
Although it's hard to find, non-sterile braided suture silk, either black or uncolored, is excellent for modeling projects. One of the things it's required to do is retain knots, and run smoothly through tissue and the eyes of surgical needles, so it's smooth (usually wax-coated), consistent in diameter and it's available in 25 and 100 yard spools.
The sizes I like most are 6/0 or "six-ought" which is generally around .003" in diameter. I also like 7/0, which is a little over .002", but I ran out of it several years ago.
I bought the stuff because I was building ship models commercially and it is perfect for 1/8" scale sailing vessels, particularly for ratlines and seizing rope ends at deadeyes and blocks...because it holds knots so well, and doesn't fray...and doesn't need that application of beeswax to contain the fuzz as a lot of cotton ship model lines need (I used three-strand twisted cuttyhunk linen line for my rigging which doesn't "fuzz").
Prices vary a bit, from around 19 bucks for the 25 yard spool to app 37 bucks for the 100 yard spool.
I wouldn't use the stuff for rigging power lines because if you snag it, you'll tear out or break a pole.
EZ Line is near perfect for that app.
One thing for certain is that suture silk will last in model environment a long time, whereas maybe EZ Line will oxidize and get stiff over time (I don't know, but the elastic in my 5 year old cycling socks isn't so elastic any more).
Just sayin'
<old thread bump>
@robert3985 what are the size(s) of the EZ line that you use?
I've been poking around the internet for elastic thread but haven't found much...
Ed
-
I use the "fine" EZ Line. It is great stuff. My track cleaning hands would have destroyed all my utility poles and lines by now if not for EZ Line's forgiving nature. I wouldn't worry about it looking too heavy. In fact, it is easy to miss completely when surrounded by scenery. This is one of those times where I think being oversized is better.
-
To me EZ Line is one of the great tools we have to create a more realistic scene...
Mine has been installed for over 5 years now and it's still elastic.
(http://www.candida-yeast-problems.com/stuff/lehighvalley.jpg)
-
<old thread bump>
@robert3985 what are the size(s) of the EZ line that you use?
I've been poking around the internet for elastic thread but haven't found much...
Ed
@ednadolski Ed, I've been thinking about using the "fine" EZ line from Berkshire Junction for "power" lines, and not using anything at all for the signal lines since they're basically invisible, unless outlined by a evenly overcast sky or bright blue sky from a low angle.
"Fine" EZ Line is .010"...still waaaay oversized for the teeny signal lines used on prototype lineside utility poles, but not too oversized (still oversized) for the power lines that are usually attached to larger insulators on the utility poles in some instances.
Although I agree in principle to the theory that in this case "oversized is better" since prototype line thicknesses would be equivalent to cobwebs, if I were to string them on every insulator on my lineside utility poles, I'd use black to minimize their appearance, even though in actual practice, they'd be brown or green. I don't want them to show up well at all...I want them to be "intimated" more than blatant....which is why I still lean towards not having them at all.
Now, if Berkshire Junction could get some made that were .005" in diameter...I'd be happy to use that in the proper colors for signal wires.
Hmmm...maybe a telephone call to them would reveal the possibility of acquiring some in a smaller than .010" diameter????? Something to think about for sure.
EZ Line in the "heavy" version is .020" just for information's sake.
Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
-
... I agree in principle to the theory that in this case "oversized is better" since prototype line thicknesses would be equivalent to cobwebs
I'm thinking along the opposite line, that scale (or even undersized) parts can create in small models a sense of size and mass of their representative prototypes... something that I refer to sometimes as "granularity" or "presence". This extends to the components that surround the models, with cumulative effect.... hence also my interest in scale handrails and code 40 rail ;)
Has anyone considered using fly-tying thread or such? Looks like that comes in 'aught' or 'denier' sizes, but I haven't seen how that matches up to actual dimensions.
Ed
-
Has anyone considered using fly-tying thread or such? Looks like that comes in 'aught' or 'denier' sizes, but I haven't seen how that matches up to actual dimensions.
Ed
Is that as flexible as the EZ Line?
That's the benefit of it...the ability to have it not pull poles over or worse when you get tangled up in it.
-
Anyone seen the Woodlands Scenics pre-wired poles?
Jason
-
@robert3985 i just ordered some 40AWG copper wire. Its .003"(.0799mm) diameter. It should also be drape a bit between the poles instead of being fiddlestring tight.
Drasko
-
@robert3985 i just ordered some 40AWG copper wire. Its .003"(.0799mm) diameter. It should also be drape a bit between the poles instead of being fiddlestring tight.
Drasko
0.003” is about right for prototypical wire, which is about half an inch.
-
@robert3985 i just ordered some 40AWG copper wire. Its .003"(.0799mm) diameter. It should also be drape a bit between the poles instead of being fiddlestring tight.
Drasko
Robert mentioned suture: "The sizes I like most are 6/0 or "six-ought" which is generally around .003" in diameter. I also like 7/0, which is a little over .002", but I ran out of it several years ago." Suture might be a bit more robust than thin wire (as far as not snapping under stress).
I'm not sure if the thin wire will have natural sag (or if you will able to make it sag). It would be nice effect if you could, but either way, this all will be quite delicate (probably won't survive long on a layout regularly used for ops).
I also believe that only power lines will have sag. Telephone and signal lines are usually quite tight and don't readily have much sag.
-
I also believe that only power lines will have sag. Telephone and signal lines are usually quite tight and don't readily have much sag.
Oh no, they sag. When we were regularly maintaining pole line when i was a signal apprentice, no matter how tight i got my blocks, which pull slack out of a line, they still had sag. You'd be surprised how have a string if #6 cooper or cooper clad is stretched between two poles. yes, they don't sag as much as a power lines, but they do sag a bit.
Drasko
-
I'm not sure if the thin wire will have natural sag (or if you will able to make it sag). It would be nice effect if you could, but either way, this all will be quite delicate (probably won't survive long on a layout regularly used for ops).
I'd suspect that with a non-elastic wire, the harder part would be to install them uniformly (with or without sag).
Line poles in N-scale are inherently a delicate matter in any case, but yeah probably 3 orders of magnitude more so by adding even elastic lines.
I also believe that only power lines will have sag. Telephone and signal lines are usually quite tight and don't readily have much sag.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catenary
Ed
-
I'd suspect that with a non-elastic wire, the harder part would be to install them uniformly (with or without sag).
Line poles in N-scale are inherently a delicate matter in any case, but yeah probably 3 orders of magnitude more so by adding even elastic lines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catenary
Ed
I should have been more specific. From what I remember the signal and telephone wires show very little sag compared to power lines. But Drasko set me straight - of course they all sag to some extent.
I also agree with you that trying to achieve that in N scale will be difficult. Especially trying to string multiple wires on a a flexible pole with even more flexible cross-arms.
-
Ill post some pictures of a test run when i get home next week with the cooper wire. Im interested to see how it does.
Drasko
-
To me EZ Line is one of the great tools we have to create a more realistic scene...
Mine has been installed for over 5 years now and it's still elastic.
(http://www.candida-yeast-problems.com/stuff/lehighvalley.jpg)
I'm glad you posted this because Mike's is the only layout I've seen that has extensive use of it. Looked great, and was absurdly flexible.
When I was a kid in HO I did telephone wires with thread, had a clumsy accident and watched the entire 8' Atlas plastic pole line come down snapping them all off at once. Never seemed like a good idea ever since. Mike's application is the only one I've seen firsthand that's made me rethink that.
I've got some beautiful wood poles that Verne Niner made with individual insulators, but I just can't imagine them holding up to line of any kind. I'd think you're want some pretty rugged poles to make this practical.
-
I've been experimenting around for a long time with stringing near scale-sized lineside utility pole signal lines. Part of the problem is not the size of the wire, since small-enough string, line and wire are pretty readily available, but...(1) it forms a formidable barrier to handling anything alongside your track (2) If actual wire or line is strung on each and every corresponding insulator, the combined force of them is strong enough to severely bend the poles, break the crossarms and snap off insulators...especially if the lines are accidently hit or caught with a finger or sleeve (3) TIME...I've looked and looked at prototype photos, and in the vast majority of them that have lineside utility poles in them, the signal wires are not visible. I mean they're INVISIBLE...and in the few photographs they ARE visible in, they're barely visible...so, is it worth all of the time it will take me to string scale-sized wire all over my layout on every utility pole and power pole???
The nice thing about Berkshire Junction's grossly oversized EZ Line is that it's not going to destroy your poles if you catch your finger or sleeve on it...unless you keep going of course! I've worked on a set of modules that a young N-scaler was superdetailing and he'd used EZ Line on his utility poles. I was happy that it was extremely elastic because I caught my fingers and camera strap on it several times and didn't do any damage at all to his work.
However, from a prototype photo aspect, which is of major interest to me...the obviousness of signal (and power) lines that are over a scale 1" in diameter (almost two scale inches) and which would be plainly visible in my photos, would actually lessen my photos realism.
With all of this thought going through my brain, I decided to actually string some .002" stainless wire in some photos I was taking for the cover of Rail Model Journal way back when. The wire was quite stiff and didn't "droop" like I wanted, and I only strung it between three poles on the Weber Canyon modules I used for the photos for the RMJ article. I wanted to see if I could see the wire, to see how it looked in quality photos, and whether it was worth stringing on my own modules.
Photo (1) - .002" stainless wire strung on N Scale of Nevada pewter/wood utility poles:
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/15/1200-240220101037.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=15194)
Note that I strung only three lines of the wire because of time constraints and I didn't want to use my entire supply of it.
It's visible only where the light shines on it is the first thing I noticed. Secondly, the shine was too much, as prototype line is oxidized and dull. Thirdly, it wasn't smooth, which didn't look very "real" to me.
My verdict at the time was that is wasn't worth the time and effort to do it, and it didn't improve the realism of the N-scale scene.
Here's a comparo of similar Wilhemina Pass photos, one being on my layout, the other being the real deal.
Photo (2) Prototype trackage showing utility poles and rock detectors alongside the mainline in Wilhemina Pass between Henefer and Morgan, just east of Devils Slide UT. See any signal wires or rock detector wires????
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/15/1200-240220102822.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=15195)
Photo (3) Utility poles on my Wilhemina Pass LDE:
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/15/1200-240220103008.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=15196)
The only lines that are visible in my LDE are the power/signal lines from the pole to the relay box, and from the relay box to the cantilever signal bridge, because there aren't any lines strung anywhere else.
When I look at my modeled scene, I think "Hmmm...no signal lines visible on the poles...must be a model!" When I look at the prototype photo, I don't notice the lack of line visibility.
It's my brain playing tricks on me...because I expect as a rivet counter/a$$hat that I should string wires, and I haven't...when in reality, they're not visible.
However, I'm still not sure what to do...to satisfy my personal expectations, or to make my photos look more realistic. Aw well.....
Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
-
For me, it's not as much about the wired pole lines as much as it is about the piss-poor availability of good line poles.
I've spoken to Rick Rideout at Rix on more than one occasion as far back as 20 years ago pleading with him to make his poles and crossarms available to N Scale.
If you haven't seen them, they are fantastic models in HO Scale.
https://rixproducts.com/product-category/telephone_poles/ (https://rixproducts.com/product-category/telephone_poles/)
Obviously, I haven't gotten anywhere.
Edited to add picture of Rix HO Crossarms.
Their poles are nice with slight wood grain and are notched in locations that the crossarms should be mounted making for a strong joint by increasing the contact area instead of just on the surface of a round pole.
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/15/1158-240220151513.jpeg)
-
For me, it's not as much about the wired pole lines as much as it is about the piss-poor availability of good line poles.
I've spoken to Rick Rideout at Rix on more than one occasion as far back as 20 years ago pleading with him to make his poles and crossarms available to N Scale.
If you haven't seen them, they are fantastic models in HO Scale.
Obviously, I haven't gotten anywhere.
Osborn Models makes some, though they are better than the stock vintage ones I still wasn't %100 happy with how they looked.
And as a sidenote, I feel much better that even the pros are struggling with the back and forth that I'm having with my photo module.
-
Yeah, I've seen the Osborn ones and they aren't quite what I'd be looking for.
They kind of lost me at the size of the bracing in relation to the crossarm.
-
Verne's poles are simply fantastic - stained individual wood parts and individually applied insulators.
I got about 30 poles from him and enough parts for another 30 poles and I've only successfully assembled about 4 more poles... gluing insulators to crossarms, I don't know how he ever even did it.
I'm split (pun intended) between poles that look that good and something as tough as Kevlar or carbon-fiber seems impossible. I know that brittle Styrene won't cut it, but most of your more flexible/tough nylon plastics are shiny and unpaintable. I've made most of my poles on the layout semi-breakaway as I'd rather repair a hole in the scenery rather than loose a pole.
Closeup of Verne's work: http://www.randgust.com/Nscalenorm01.jpg (Yes, that's Norm and Sue in the background retired at the Flagstaff trailer)
These were all Verne's that I got when he went into On30; wish I had more: http://www.randgust.com/winslow%20welcome5.jpg
But I still love Mike Winicki's wires.... it's a real wow when you see it firsthand, even if photo theory says they are fat.
-
Verne's poles are simply fantastic - stained individual wood parts and individually applied insulators.
I got about 30 poles from him and enough parts for another 30 poles and I've only successfully assembled about 4 more poles... gluing insulators to crossarms, I don't know how he ever even did it.
I'm split (pun intended) between poles that look that good and something as tough as Kevlar or carbon-fiber seems impossible. I know that brittle Styrene won't cut it, but most of your more flexible/tough nylon plastics are shiny and unpaintable. I've made most of my poles on the layout semi-breakaway as I'd rather repair a hole in the scenery rather than loose a pole.
Closeup of Verne's work: http://www.randgust.com/Nscalenorm01.jpg (Yes, that's Norm and Sue in the background retired at the Flagstaff trailer)
These were all Verne's that I got when he went into On30; wish I had more: http://www.randgust.com/winslow%20welcome5.jpg
But I still love Mike Winicki's wires.... it's a real wow when you see it firsthand, even if photo theory says they are fat.
(http://www.randgust.com/Nscalenorm01.jpg)
Sure, that sounds great, but the crossarms and insulators look out of scale. Here we have discussion on trying to find "wire" that is close to scale, just to hang it on caricatures of line poles? Makes no sense to me.
And I mentioned earlier (and so have others), truly-scaled line poles (including crossarms and insulators) would have to be so delicate that they would likely not survive long on an operating train layout. They might not even survive the wire being strung on them. Maybea viable choice on a diorama enclosed in a display case, but that is about it.
-
Im in a different situation. Im a signalman so it would be absurd if i didn't string my line wire.
As for Bob's point as line wire not showing up in photos, i agree, its hard to see in photos but in person, the naked eye can see it, even from an n-scale distance vantage point. Well, at least my eyes for now. I also notice that stuff since it my profession i guess.
Drasko
-
Good to see Sue and Norm again. Hope they're enjoying their retirement.
-
Bob - incredible photo of your Wilhemina Pass LDE! Do you have a Layout Engineering thread or your own website where you have more photos? Really impressive!
-
Our home was next to a PRR/PC mainline when I was a kid and for me a big part of the scene were those Pennsy telegraph poles and all the wires... regardless that even the thin EZ line is too thick, or the Atlas poles aren't quite right or the insulators not the right size... To not include poles & wires would have resulted in a partially completed scene. And in PRR/PC prototype pics... image after image– You see poles & wires. They're just a dominant player, especially along a main.
(http://www.candida-yeast-problems.com/stuff/TelegraphLines.jpg)
-
"Fine" EZ Line is .010"...
I thought I was missing something because the EZ Line I've always worked with is way thinner than the .010 phosphor bronze I've used for detailing, so I broke out the calipers.
Here is Fine EZ line laying through the calipers set at .010". I know Berkshire Junction lists them at .010", but there's clearly quite a bit of daylight visible.
(https://i.imgur.com/f90SVwq.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/f90SVwq.jpg
Doing my best not to pinch, I read between .004 and .003". When stretched, it'll easily go below .002".
(https://i.imgur.com/wv2URoS.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/wv2URoS.jpg
Birds sure love EZ Line too. 8)
(https://i.imgur.com/Gh4YgSw.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/Gh4YgSw.jpg
Sheen off the lines also help those 3D printed translucent insulators pop! I know Spring Creek has a few packs left. ;)
(https://i.imgur.com/TtpbtvI.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/TtpbtvI.jpg
-
I thought I was missing something because the EZ Line I've always worked with is way thinner than the .010 phosphor bronze I've used for detailing, so I broke out the calipers.
Here is Fine EZ line laying through the calipers set at .010". I know Berkshire Junction lists them at .010", but there's clearly quite a bit of daylight visible.
Doing my best not to pinch, I read between .004 and .003". When stretched, it'll easily go below .002".
Interesting. O.1 mm = 0.0039". I wonder is somebody, somewhere, got a conversion confused.
-
A Rix type product would be huge addition. Good line side poles seem to me to be one of the big holes in product availability in N scale. Plastic like Rix, or etched brass cross arms that could be soldered to brass poles for greater durability.
Years ago I used some very fine nylon thread (think of the finest monofilament fishing line you could imagine) to wire up some plastic poles. I recall that the poles were European and moulded in black plastic. They were also smaller than the Atlas poles, more in line with the smaller scale of railroad line side poles. The whole arrangement was surprisingly durable and lasted some years before that layout was demolished.
I still have the spool of thread; I can’t calliper it but it’s easily less than 0.005, but it is translucent white and difficult to see. However, nylon thread seems to be available in a variety of colours. I recall I tried to spray paint mine black after installation, but that only made it too ‘bold’.
On my current layout the typical placement of the poles would be between the viewer and the track for most of the layout. This, combined with the effort to string all of poles I would need, leads me to think that I wouldn’t string my non existent line side poles. But I’m not a signalman.
Geoff
-
When I look at my modeled scene, I think "Hmmm...no signal lines visible on the poles...must be a model!" When I look at the prototype photo, I don't notice the lack of line visibility.
It's my brain playing tricks on me...because I expect as a rivet counter/a$$hat that I should string wires, and I haven't...when in reality, they're not visible.
@robert3985 this is just me ruminating, but I wonder if this perhaps is some kind of effect from the notion of "granularity" that I mentioned. From looking at models all the time, our brains, which function as pattern-recognition engines, become conditioned & adapted to seeing detail parts that are in general oversized, on the order of say 50% to 100% or so (more or less). In N scale this is prevalent in many areas, e.g. handrails, ladders, couplers, wheels, rail, line poles, scenery elements, etc... almost everything, really. This leads to two effects: (1) When we see oversized details, our pattern-recognizing brains immediately make a "this is a model" association. This holds whether looking at a model in-person or in a photo, tho each of those also has subtle cues that help our brains to recognize them as such. Subsequently, (2) that association creates an expectation, which feeds back into our pattern-recognizer as a sort of control parameter or bias, that every detail in the modeled scene should be over-scale by about the same amount. Then, when we replace an element in the scene with one that is truly scale-sized, to the point where we cannot actually see it (just like with true prototype proportions), our biased expectation leads our pattern-recognizers to conclude "model with missing element" instead of "realistic prototype scene with true-to-scale sized elements that I can't see". To remove or change the expectation, it would first be necessary to change enough of elements in the scene to scale sizes/proportions, so that the initial "this is a model" association is removed, or at least weakened to the point where the brain has to look for other cues in order to answer the "what am I looking at here?" question.
I refer to that as, 'increasing the granularity' or 'increasing the resolution', somewhat like replacing an HD image with a 4k version. It's in essence trying to increase the scale fidelity of the models, by removing the more obvious "giveaway" elements.
Our brains of course use many other subliminal cues, but addressing them all become more a matter of trying to create a virtual reality - something that really is at the center of our model building efforts ;)
Ed
-
I'll have to mic Verns's poles to defend him, but his insulators were basically painted off of the usual Atlas N poles, then cut off and applied to individual wood crossarms with metal bracing. What I found next to impossible is gluing those individual insulators back on wood crossarms, upright, spaced, and so that the first time you even touch it they didn't fall off.
I had the entire layout populated with Atlas plastic poles at one time, repainted, and even after that they still looked like plastic poles and were fragile enough that some got periodically snapped off. This was a huge visual improvement on some of the most photographed areas of the layout.
With real wood, the crossarms are small enough that brushing against them or snagging them snaps them off at the pole (yes, Verne notched the poles to fit the crossarms, that part holds, but the crossarm still snaps) although the poles themselves are pretty tough.
I'm all for the Ez-line, but I know darn well the poles I have aren't up for it. Mike actually encouraged me to deliberately snag the lines and stretch them, and watching them recover without damage, well, that did it for me.
I grew up in the sticks with REA service, and one memorable Christmas was spent without power after an epic snowstorm putting trees down on the phone and power lines; I volunteered to help the one man still on duty on Christmas day on resetting the lines and poles through the forest through my area, using block and tackle and chainsaws. Even the prototype stuff isn't built tough enough to take that kind of abuse but it breaks just like the model wants to. Interestingly enough, some of the metal salvage debris (bolts, braces and a couple partial crossarms) were used to hold up my rural mailboxes for years and are still there decades later.
-
Anyone seen the Woodlands Scenics pre-wired poles?
Jason
I've only seen images but they didn't impress me as much as the ones Rapido offered.
-
As I think about how to make really nice looking poles conveniently, it seems to me that poles injection molded in transparent plastic the color of insulators would make a lot of sense. That way, the parts that are not insulators can be painted to look like wood, and the insulators are solidly attached and look realistic. If the moldings did not include the diagonal braces for the cross arms, then brass etchings of cross arms could be glued on after painting, or perhaps even supported by tabs that are bent back and pushed into holes in the poles and cross arms before they are glued.
To me, the problem with currently available products seems to be that the people who do injection molds want to make "the whole thing" rather than "part of an assembly", so we get some sub-optimum aspects on the molded products because those aspects could be done better with another medium.
Manufacturers who make cars for us could probably make the poles like I envision. MTL, what do you think?
-
As I think about how to make really nice looking poles conveniently, it seems to me that poles injection molded in transparent plastic the color of insulators would make a lot of sense. That way, the parts that are not insulators can be painted to look like wood, and the insulators are solidly attached and look realistic. If the moldings did not include the diagonal braces for the cross arms, then brass etchings of cross arms could be glued on after painting, or perhaps even supported by tabs that are bent back and pushed into holes in the poles and cross arms before they are glued.
To me, the problem with currently available products seems to be that the people who do injection molds want to make "the whole thing" rather than "part of an assembly", so we get some sub-optimum aspects on the molded products because those aspects could be done better with another medium.
Manufacturers who make cars for us could probably make the poles like I envision. MTL, what do you think?
Your idea has been partially implemented by our 3D genuses. Remember this thread, and the following conversation?
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=45869.msg595675#msg595675 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=45869.msg595675#msg595675)
Cross arms (and close-to-scale insulators) are printed as one unit using transparent green resin. They can then be glued to wooden poles.
(https://i.imgur.com/TtpbtvI.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1WwwdkQ.jpg)
-
Wow those look great! 8)
ed
-
Your idea has been partially implemented by our 3D genuses. Remember this thread, and the following conversation?
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=45869.msg595675#msg595675 (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=45869.msg595675#msg595675)
Yes, that thread was one of the things that made me think about what I suggested. Those finished cross arms sure look great. But, the 3D print material and the glue joint to the wooden poles seems to make them pretty vulnerable to the snag and break scenario. I am trying to think of a way to have pretty inexpensive but robust poles and cross arms that still look great.
-
Just a thought - how hard would it be to actually drill and pin the crossarms on with .010 or similar wire? When I've had to make similar connections between Delrin and something I've found it easier to drill/pin/ACC than rely purely on an adhesive for a joint like that. My guess would be the crossarm or the pole might break, but probably not the glue joint.
-
Cross arms (and close-to-scale insulators) are printed as one unit using transparent green resin. They can then be glued to wooden poles.
(https://i.imgur.com/TtpbtvI.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1WwwdkQ.jpg)
Wow, those look great! I used to Wiseman cross arms on my poles, and painted the insulators gloss green, but these look oh so much better.
Do they make these in O scale?
-
Wow, those look great! I used to Wiseman cross arms on my poles, and painted the insulators gloss green, but these look oh so much better.
Do they make these in O scale?
I'm sure they can be done. I think that was @Mark W who did those and he could probably scale them up or just draw them up for "O". If he didn't want to do it I'm sure you could find others willing and able, including myself. ;) Some dimensions might be handy for that. 8)
Also, I don't know if "O" would be large enough to make just the insulators to be glued into a cross arm. :| Might be worth investigating.
-
One comment on those cross arms - they have 4 insulators per side. From what I have seen, signal wire cross arms always have 5 insulator positions on each side of the pole, with the inside ones being quite close to the pole. Not all of the insulator positions are always used, but the spacing seems to always be the same, with blanks in some locations, sometimes.
So, if modeled with 5 per side, it should be easy to cut off any insulators in unwanted positions before painting the cross arms.
-
I'm drawing up several different poles with the crossarms and insulators. I'll print them in green and see how robust they are.
-
Much of what we're discussing here has been talked about before. Here's TRW's "Lineside Pole Clinic" organized by DKS and contributed greatly to by me. Of particular note are the scale drawings and prototype photos and also how lineside poles were set up, as well as various markings and meanings applied to them throughout the different eras as technology grew. https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=46061.0
I have several newly found prototype drawings that I'll be adding to the clinic in the next couple of days.
Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
-
I thought I was missing something because the EZ Line I've always worked with is way thinner than the .010 phosphor bronze I've used for detailing, so I broke out the calipers.
Here is Fine EZ line laying through the calipers set at .010". I know Berkshire Junction lists them at .010", but there's clearly quite a bit of daylight visible.
(https://i.imgur.com/f90SVwq.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/f90SVwq.jpg
Doing my best not to pinch, I read between .004 and .003". When stretched, it'll easily go below .002".
(https://i.imgur.com/wv2URoS.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/wv2URoS.jpg
Birds sure love EZ Line too. 8)
(https://i.imgur.com/Gh4YgSw.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/Gh4YgSw.jpg
Sheen off the lines also help those 3D printed translucent insulators pop! I know Spring Creek has a few packs left. ;)
(https://i.imgur.com/TtpbtvI.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/TtpbtvI.jpg
@Mark W Welllllll....This changes things for me! :) .010" diameter was too big for me to consider, but anything under .005" is permissible, and even smaller is better, although I suspect that I don't want to stretch the EZ Line to the point that it decreases in diameter to .002"...which I think would be too tight especially if I've got a total of eighteen insulators on three crossarms on each pole.
Time to get my 3D crossarms w/insulators finished up and printed and send off an order to Berkshire Junction for several colors of EZ Line to experiment with!
Photo (1) - My 3D crossarms drawn from prototype dimensions taken from fallen UP Telegraph/Telephone Poles in Echo Canyon and photos of still-standing poles:
(https://www.therailwire.net/forum/gallery/15/1200-260220220039.jpeg) (https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=15284)
Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
-
Mark, are those Goldfinches sitting on your lines. :o
But it seems like a losing battle with gravity and the laws of physics to try to get model birds to sit on top of Berkshire Junction EZ Line, unless they are really close to the insulators. (I'm gonna stick my pigeons on roof ridges and cross arms.)
-
@robert3985 this is just me ruminating, but I wonder if this perhaps is some kind of effect from the notion of "granularity" that I mentioned. From looking at models all the time, our brains, which function as pattern-recognition engines, become conditioned & adapted to seeing detail parts that are in general oversized, on the order of say 50% to 100% or so (more or less). In N scale this is prevalent in many areas, e.g. handrails, ladders, couplers, wheels, rail, line poles, scenery elements, etc... almost everything, really. This leads to two effects: (1) When we see oversized details, our pattern-recognizing brains immediately make a "this is a model" association. This holds whether looking at a model in-person or in a photo, tho each of those also has subtle cues that help our brains to recognize them as such. Subsequently, (2) that association creates an expectation, which feeds back into our pattern-recognizer as a sort of control parameter or bias, that every detail in the modeled scene should be over-scale by about the same amount. Then, when we replace an element in the scene with one that is truly scale-sized, to the point where we cannot actually see it (just like with true prototype proportions), our biased expectation leads our pattern-recognizers to conclude "model with missing element" instead of "realistic prototype scene with true-to-scale sized elements that I can't see". To remove or change the expectation, it would first be necessary to change enough of elements in the scene to scale sizes/proportions, so that the initial "this is a model" association is removed, or at least weakened to the point where the brain has to look for other cues in order to answer the "what am I looking at here?" question.
I refer to that as, 'increasing the granularity' or 'increasing the resolution', somewhat like replacing an HD image with a 4k version. It's in essence trying to increase the scale fidelity of the models, by removing the more obvious "giveaway" elements.
Our brains of course use many other subliminal cues, but addressing them all become more a matter of trying to create a virtual reality - something that really is at the center of our model building efforts ;)
Ed
@ednadolski Ed, I agree with you, and have incorporated much of the idea of "increasing the resolution" into my common scenes, a good example of which is sifting my real-rock ballast so that it's scaled-down prototype sized. When I was taking photos for the Model Railroader photo contest back in the '90's, I intentionally took obvious things off of my models that would be a "giveaway" as to what scale the models were, such as all of the Magnematic dongles on the Z-scale Kadee couplers, and cast-on grabs on the Kato F's...although my replacement wire wasn't as fine as what you use for your handrails and grabs. I also used Rail-Craft C70 flex because of the prototype tie dimensions and spacing...and found that in the photos I sent in, the rail height wasn't a factor.
When I won the contest, many of the comments were that they couldn't tell that it was an N-scale scene, which was what I was shooting for.
I had some non-model railroaders tell me that the photo looked "real", but never had any experienced modelers tell me that.
I regretted not stringing .002" wire on my scratch-built telegraph poles in this photos, thinking that would have been the final touch, but pondering upon the problem, I'm not so sure that would have improved the photos.
Telegraph/signal/telephone wire has been a more insurmountable problem for me because it is really small and to my way of thinking, should also "disappear" in photos like the prototype does most of the time...but just leaving it off doesn't do it for me...even though prototype photos of locations my LDE's depict don't show any wires on the poles.
I think since Mark W has actually measured EZ Line, and it's substantially smaller than its advertised diameter, that I can finally be happy with using it, satisfying about 80% of both what I think I should be doing as well as what I think my photos should look like.
Now, if only somebody would produce some real N-scale properly proportioned Code 46 rail! :D
Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
-
my replacement wire wasn't as fine as what you use for your handrails and grabs.
I was really surprised at what a difference (to my eye) the exact-scale wire parts made. I never would have thought that a 0.003" difference in diameter would be noticeable, but the eye can and does pick up on it when it is juxtaposed with the other elements in a scene (esp. when some of the other 'giveaway' cues are removed).
It's almost the same amount of work to use fully-scale parts as oversized parts, so no real reason to go with the latter afaics.
I had some non-model railroaders tell me that the photo looked "real", but never had any experienced modelers tell me that.
Perhaps, maybe because they are more accustomed to looking at models, so they readily pick up on the 'giveaway' cues, whether they realize it or not.
I regretted not stringing .002" wire on my scratch-built telegraph poles in this photos, thinking that would have been the final touch, but pondering upon the problem, I'm not so sure that would have improved the photos.
Lighting is another one of those subliminal depth cues, as is the perspective distortions that a camera lens imposes. I'm always curious about "tilt-shift" that makes real trains look like models, I wonder if there is a reverse application of that which can make a model loolk more like a full-sized train.
https://lakeshorerailway.com/tilt-shift-train-photography/
(https://lakeshorerailway.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/tilt-shift-train.jpg)
I think since Mark W has actually measured EZ Line, and it's substantially smaller than its advertised diameter, that I can finally be happy with using it, satisfying about 80% of both what I think I should be doing as well as what I think my photos should look like.
I'm going to have to try some of that, when I get the chance ;) IIRC, MC used it for fences too.
Now, if only somebody would produce some real N-scale properly proportioned Code 46 rail! :D
I think it's only a matter of time, before that can be done in metal on a 3D printer ;)
Ed