Skeleton or disconnects for Climax?

[wcfn100]

I don't know much about logging operations so I figured I'd ask here.

I have an Aspen Models N scale Climax that I'm probably going to keep for a while but wanted to sell off either the MTL logging disconnects or skeleton log cars my dad had.

Are either log cars more likely to run with a Climax?

Thanks,

Jason

[Chris333]

It's not dependent on the locomotive. What logging RR are you modeling? What cars did they use.

[wcfn100]

Don't know if there's a protoype railroad for this locomotive or if it's just generic.



I'm inclined to keep the disconnects, I just was curious if one or the other would be more appropriate.

Thanks,

Jason

[PanAmShay]

That photo looks like a generic Climax, nothing specific.  As mentioned, different RR used different types.

Personally, I like the looks of the disconnects better and they match the prototype logging RR I model, however there are some functional drawbacks to the disconnects.   The connection between the truck and the load is a very tiny slip fit plastic pin on the log bunk.  They come out and sometimes break.  The couplers are also truck mount, so more difficult for operations.  The skeleton car will be more durable (normal bolster pins) and easier for operations (body mount couplers). 

[Chris333]

Sorta looks like a heavier Climax that was scrunched up a bit.

[chessie system fan]

That Climax is an oil burner, which implies use on the West coast, which would further imply larger diameter logs.

I say use whatever cars you want. 

[nkalanaga]

As far as I know all disconnect log trucks had truck mounted couplers, since there was nothing there except the truck.

Many West Coast, especially Northwest, loggers used disconnects.  In the early days, 80 ft logs weren't uncommon, and there was no way to put them on a flat or skeleton car.  Many of the oversized logs ended up as ship masts.

[PanAmShay]

As far as I know all disconnect log trucks had truck mounted couplers, since there was nothing there except the truck.

Many West Coast, especially Northwest, loggers used disconnects.  In the early days, 80 ft logs weren't uncommon, and there was no way to put them on a flat or skeleton car.  Many of the oversized logs ended up as ship masts.

Yes correct.  I was just trying to point out to the OP that, if he isn't after a certain RR which might dictate a style, then there are pros and cons for each type.  I run a string of disconnects when doing a NTRAK loop at a show or minor ops, and sometimes run a string of empty disconnects for a return.  But they are more finicky for ops, where I might use a few MTL Modern Log cars which are more durable and body mount. 

That is a very cool loco (I've never seen one in person), so enjoy running it with whatever log cars you choose!

[nkalanaga]

The biggest problem with empty disconnects is that they have very little weight.

[delamaize]

I can only speak for one logging operation, but, Mutual Lumber of Bucoda Wa, use exclusively climaxes, and everything they had was skeleton cars. They did not use any logging disconnects because they have a higher derailment risk.

[nkalanaga]

From the pictures I've seen, disconnects seem to have been almost exclusively West Coast, and then primarily in areas with both tall trees and sawmills that could handle long logs.  Most loggers cutting 40 ft or shorter logs seem to have preferred an actual car.

Another factor against disconnects is that, as far as I know, nobody tried to put air brakes on them.  Once the locos had air brakes, the loggers wanted them on the trains as well.

[randgust]

Well, if you want to get 'technical', remember Climax went out of business in 1928, first to go.   The B class topped out at maybe 35 ton, I'd have to check, but not all that big.  The west coast Climax population was a lot bigger, often 3 truck, but Shays and Heislers certainly dominated the west coast in the latter era.   Heisler even made a couple diesels on the same chassis.

But it's not absurd, anyway, see this one:  https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=4677924862232926&set=a.655341135814495


And east of the Mississippi, your log size was way smaller, shorter.   And loaders, both Barnhart and American, were able to traverse from car to car on rails.

So these are the 'right cars', now made of unobtanium.... (pewter)

https://www.spookshow.net/freight/nsk25log.html

https://www.spookshow.net/freight/qclog.html

'if' you can find them, the N Scale Kits are the ones I helped Alan Curtis design based on Climax drawings.    I've got a big roster of them.   But I can't even find the website, last I'd seen of it it had been hacked.  It's now available again and I'm assuming Peter Harris is still struggling.   See:  https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=56767.30


As far as out west, longer logs, longer cars, spar tree loading or other methods, disconnects or spine cars, just remember that's a little locomotive, in real life no more than a 35-tonner.   The reason I scratchbuilt my own Class B Climax was the price of one of those and it's just looked 'scrunched', and the reason I did (and do) the Climax A kits on the Kato chassis was the fairly outrageous price of the Aspenmodels and they didn't look even close to a Class A anyway.

[Iain]

The MT skeleton log cars look like they're based off of West Side Lumber cars.  Grind off the brake and replace the bunks and you can turn them into Russel cars.

Keep in mind that often the car was sold as a kit of just the metal parts and it would be built into a full car on site.

Magor built all steel cars.  I'm aware of them on the 42 inch gauge Dismal Swamp RR in north eastern North Carolina and south eastern Virginia.

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Roper Lumber and Goldsboro Lumber of eastern NC both seem to have used Russel cars in standard gauge.

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Note the Russel pattern has the straps on the ends of the log bunks that served as stake pockets.

[nkalanaga]

It makes sense that a logging company would buy just the metal.  They can cut their own timbers in-house, and build a car the exact length they want.

Some companies did basically the same thing with their disconnects.  They'd connect two trucks with a timber, usually in the link-and-pin pockets, and run it as single car.  The advantage was that it didn't depend on the weight of the logs to keep everything together, but it was still more flexible, for curves, grades, etc, than a regular flatcar

[PanAmShay]

Here is an excerpt from the book Swivel Chair Logger by Bert Webber discussing use of Disconnects vs skeleto skeletons, pages 119-121.  Provides Marilyn a Shay operation, they did use some Climax locos


“Generally, logs had to be cut with two basic considerations in mind. If a customer required a special length, then this had to be met. The other consideration was the length of the railroad cars on which the logs were to be hauled. If only railroad company cars were used, the logs could not generally exceed forty feet. If a longer load was required, the logs would have to be mounted on two cars at extra cost. Therefore Anton decided that for the best overall operation, only "disconnected trucks" would be used. These trucks were merely "dollies."
With disconnected trucks, logs of any length could be hauled. Anton bought eighty sets. This was the equivalent of 160 cars except that one pair of trucks could handle a load of eighty-foot logs -twice the length of a commercial car.

“When my surveyors were planning truck (sic) layouts, we first considered using railroad company cars so an effort was made not to set the curves too tight. The curves on "public track," as we sometimes called the main line, usually did not exceed fifteen degrees. A main line steam locomotive could stay on the track at twenty-two degrees and the trucks on the cars could swivel to twenty-two degrees- nothing more. But when we decided to use disconnected trucks, which would go around anything, we could tighten our curves considerably and save a lot of construction money as well as time. Our side-winder engines were designed for maximum thirty degrees. We settled on twenty-five.

“Unlike standard cars there were no air brakes on disconnected trucks.
Every truck had an individually hand operated brake. If we were to use disconnected trucks, we would have to hire more brakemen. The engineer would stop the train to permit the brakemen to set brakes before going down a steep grade. Quite frequently, the brakemen used their hands to set the brakes just near the point of grabbing. Each brakemen had a lever called a "hickey," that he carried with him. He'd insert the lever into the brake wheel to force the turn of the wheel when needed.

“Speed was dangerous for a log train so we moved trains slowly. A train of loaded disconnected trucks was fragile, and a jerky engineer could pull the train apart.

“Our grades were steep, often five percent. The five percent grade to the top of the divide was nearly one mile long and had some tight curves thrown in-some on trestles. As a train started down a grade, the brakeman, either riding the load or running along the train, inserted his hickey and tightened the brakes. The engineers on disconnected trains were very cooperative with the brakemen for if they were not, all that load of logs could come down on top of them.

“East Side Logging Company had only one serious runaway and this was because of lack of cooperation on the part of an engineer. Once an engineer did not signal the head brakeman on time and the fifty-ton Willamette, with its cars, roared down the five per cent divide grade and piled up in a heap in the canyon. Nobody got hurt or killed. There was no product damage either, because the train was merely a double string of empty disconnected trucks-some on each end of the engine-just being moved getting ready to make up a train. Although the engineer put on his air brakes, the weight of the trucks rolling down hill pulled the engine right along because, of course, disconnected trucks did not have air brakes.

“That engineer was so embarassed that he had lost his train that he walked away from it-left the job and never drew his pay. There was no animosity between the men about it but it was negligence on the part of the engineer. The engineer of a train of disconnected trucks, all loaded with logs was the key to successful operation of the train. If you didn't have a good engineer it could cost you your whole operation. Not only would he dump the load of logs, which took a lot of labor to pick up and reload, but the loss of rolling stock could be severe. In the case in mind the locomotive had to be picked up, taken apart, loaded on rented flat cars and sent back to the Willamette Iron and Steel Works for major repairs.”