Digitrax consisting issue

[Maletrain]

On the off chance, is there a battery in the command station.  Maybe replace that if it’s been in there for a while

"All storage is in non-volatile memory, no battery changes required!"  from Digitrax sales material for the DCS240

[Dupesy]

It would help if you told us the slot numbers as well as the addresses.  When you say the tops went to "address 1" and "address 3", do you really mean they went to slots 1 and 3, with the same addresses (1717 and 1948) in those low slots as in the original slots? 

The DCS240 may be moving the slot of the top loco address from a slot above 120 to a slot below 120 without changing the actual address.  The Loco Monitor shows the slot that the other slots are consisted to, so you need to look at that top slot's content to see the actual top address.  If that is what is happening, then it is probably correct behavior, and would explain why the consists still work at that point.

But, there are 2 remaining questions:

1.  Why did the command station move the top consist addresses to those low slots?  Was the top address originally in a slot number higher than 120?  Did you try to acquire those consists with a throttle that is not enabled for the slots above 120?  Check your throttles to make sure that they are set to be able to address the higher slot numbers.  For instance, see https://www.digitrax.com/tsd/KB1068/ut6-throttle-options-settings/ , which indicates that the UT6D throttles come with the default setting to not be able to access the high slots. Similarly, see https://www.digitrax.com/tsd/KB1067/dt602-throttle-options-list/ , which also shows ID10 as "off" by default for the DT602D throttles, so they aren't enabled for the high slots by default, either.  So, to enable these throttles for the high slots, you need to go into their menus and change their ID10 settings if you have not done that already.  Strangely, the manuals don't mention any of that, directly - they just have pointers to the links I provided above.

2.  Anyway, in addition to the consist top addresses being moved to different slots, you say those consists eventually stopped working, which is an additional issue.  So, we need to understand what happens after the slot changes occur. So, for instance, when the top address moves from its original slot to a different slot, what happens with the original slot.  Does the top address also stay in the original slot, but just lose the "top" designation for that slot, or does the original slot get cleared of its address, or does some other address appear there.  And, if some other address does appear there, then what is that new address?

I am beginning to get the thought that the problem here is that the throttles making the consists are not enabled for slot numbers above 120, but are still somehow making consists that are in slots above 120, anyway.  Then when the not-enabled throttle requests to acquire the top address, the command station moves that address to a lower slot to allow the acquisition.  But, somewhere along the line, perhaps after a shutdown or a timed inactive address "purge" (see DCS240 Op Switch settings) the connection between the top address slot(s?) and the consist gets "lost".

So, lots of stuff to check to figure this out - which is why most people do not bother to pursue the issue this far - so the issue has persisted for quite a while.

Also, regarding your "bricked" UT6Ds, it is common for the Digitrax updating program to fail to complete an update and leave the update item "bricked".  The Digitrax solution for that is to keep trying until it works.  (Yes, that is also the definition of insanity, but it does often eventually work - after as many as 7 tries in quick succession.)  It does help to make sure that the LocoNet is absolutely "quiet" on the command station doing the updating.  The usual recommendation is to disconnect the command station from the layout LocoNet and plug the item to be updated directly into the LocoNet jack on the command station before updating.  Worth a try before paying for "Florida vacations" for your UT6Ds.  (I would also disconnect the track feeds from the command station, in case there is some sort of Railcom signal from somewhere on the layout.)

I did not note the slot numbers, but no, the top address changed to address 1, etc, so the original consist of 1016-1717-1728 lost the top loco (1717) and the other two responded to address 1.  I do believe the removed, original tops locos did change slot numbers.  I do know for certain that NONE of the used slots are/were higher than slot 99; there were no 3-digit slots in use. 

The consists stopped working after a power cycle of the command station.  They worked last night, even with the top loco not showing as the top in Slot Monitor, but upon powering up the system this morning the top locos functioned on their own and the other engines responded to the single digit address they were magically re-consisted to.  Tomorrow I will try to screenshot the Slot Monitor and see what changes.

I did note today when I rebuilt a couple consists NONE of the info ever changed in Slot Monitor, even after a power cycle. 

I did contact Digitrax Help Desk who recommended the same, keep retrying the update.  However digilPLI does not show them in the device list.  I had them (one at a time) connected directly to the CS with no other loconet devices connected. 

John, this is a 4-month-old DCS-240+.  And I was having the same issue with the DCS-100 I had set up before, which is why I thought this was initially user error.

[Dupesy]

I didn't close JMRI, here's a screenshot of Slot Monitor from when the layout was powered down.

[Maletrain]

That screen shot of the LocoNet Monitor is really helpful.  When you power up the layout again and note some changes, provide another screen shot like that one and we might be able to figure something out.

Interesting that none of your slots are above 120.  That would make it unnecessary for the command station to shift address slots, even if your throttles are not enabled for the slots above 120.  But, it sounds like it is shifting something, anyway.  Being able to demonstrate that to Diigtrax might get their attention, even if it doesn't suggest a work-around strategy for us to use without their help.

Please tell us if the DT602D has been enabled for the higher slot numbers, even though they are not being used.  There seems to be some sort of coding error(s?) in the firmware, so making assumptions about what should be happening is not necessarily accurate under these conditions.

[Maletrain]

P.S.  When the Slot Monitor does not change when you think it should, try hitting the "force refresh" button on the screen.

[Dupesy]

ID10 on all throttles is currently off, I turned that off shortly after discovery of this issue at the suggestion of a friend.

Just turned the layout on again, after almost 48 hrs.  Slot Monitor showed...nothing.  If I select the top loco in a consist all locos in the consist run as they should.  The top locos then show in Slot Monitor, in the same slot as they were in when I shut down Friday evening.  The sub locos do not show in Slot Monitor at all.


**edit** if I select a sub loco on a throttle it will then show in Slot Monitor, in the same Slot as it was in Friday.  I've turn ID10 on for all throttles.

[Dupesy]

so all the consists I built friday were done with throttles with ID10 turned off.  I turned it on in all throttles today, and built a couple more consists.  They are using slots numbers over 120.  I then selected a previously built consist and the top loco shows in two different slots.  For laughs I selected one of the sub locos, and it now also shows in two different slots, each consisted to the right top loco, but sub to different slots.  See attached.  Going back to the original concern that started this thread, I can't say for certain which throttles had ID10 on or off prior to starting this experiment, especially since two throttles that I was using are inoperative.

[Maletrain]

That screen shot of the Slot Monitor showing only the "top" for the lead locos in the consists is not what I would expect if the consist is still working.  I would expect the other locos in the consists to be using slots.  Of course, when you dial up an address that is in a consist, I would expect it to assign a slot to that address, but not show that it is in a consist, because it appears on the Slot Monitor that it isn't in one.  From what you posted, it is not clear to me how you got from the first screen shot to the second screen shot in you last post.

But, I notice that all of the locos in a consist have been moved to the slots above 120 in your last screen shot, and all but one of the sub addresses was deleted from the slots below 120.  So, maybe that is where they get moved when you shut down?  Why JMRI would not display them until you "acquired" them with a throttle may be an issue with JMRI.  But, moving the consists to the high slots, including duplicate slots for the "top" address in each consist, one below 120 and one above, seems like it would not make a problem for your throttles with ID10 turned off - so it does not explain why your consists previously became inoperable.

I am wondering if your DCS240 already had the slots above 120 enabled when you posted the first screen shot, or if you enable those slots in the command station between the times you did the screen shots.  What is the value of the Op Switch 44 now? ("t" = 400 slots, "c" =120 slots, default is "t" for 400 slots).

It is also odd that one consist sub-address did not get deleted from the lower slots, even though it was duped in the high slots: address 1016 in slot 44 is shown consisted to slot 46, which holds address 1717, but address 1016 is duped in slot 143.  In the last screen shot, that consist is assigned to the same throttle that made some of the other consists that had their subs shifted above slot 120 and their tops duped above 120, so it would not seem to be a matter of what throttle was used - except that the throttle used is different  for that pair of addresses in the two screen shots you just posted.  So, I am not sure what has been done and not done between the two screen shots.

It would help if you identify which throttle is which.  By acquiring an address, you can check the Slot Monitor to find out what the throttle ID is for that throttle.  For the DT602D, I don't know if that is going to have a different throttle ID for each side of the hand set, or just one.  Please check for us.

Another item to consider is that the DCS240 manual says to move the DCS mode switch to "Sleep" before turning off power.  Are you doing that - most people do not do it.  It may be important for the DCS240, but did not seem to matter for the DCS100s.

[Dupesy]

between the two screenshots I enabled ID10 on my three functioning throttles, a DT602D and two UT6Ds, and built a couple new consists.  I did not make any changes to any opswitches on the CS, so it would be as set from the factory.  I'll read that later today to confirm. 

I did not select all sub locos after turning on ID10, just what you see duplicated.  Same with the top locos.  I also only used the UT6Ds for this, I did not use the 602D at all.

I always shut down the same way:  track power off via a throttle, CS to Sleep, Booster to Sleep.

The wild card is that I don't know how ID10 was set on the two inoperative UT6Ds that no longer function but I had been using to make consists and run trains.  (I really don't care for the DT602D and rarely use it).  I have a suspicion they were set different and causing the issues these screen shots show:  top loco being moved to a higher slot number and then there being duplicates.  Or after that reselecting a consist with a throttle with ID10 off and the top loco moving slots, again.  I'm starting to think that maybe having everything set to only allow 120 slots is the way to go; there's no way I'll have that many locos on the layout at the same time.

[Maletrain]

Regarding the "missing" addresses for the non-top locos, I think that is a JMRI issue - I think it was just not showing the higher slots in the Slot Monitor because it was automatically "thinking" that was not necessary, maybe based on how the first throttle that connected after power-up was set with respect to using slots above 120.

See https://www.jmri.org/help/en/html/hardware/loconet/Digitrax.shtml

which says:

"Expanded Protocol(XP Slots) if set to "No" then JMRI will only use the original LocoNet messages to control locomotives, but, slots greater than 120 in the DCS240/DCS240+ will not be accessed. If set to "Auto" JMRI will use the Expanded LocoNet protocol used by Evolution series Command Stations (DCS52,210,210+,240,240+) if available. If mixing older throttles, such as the UT4 or DT402 without the upgraded firmware, on a DCS240 or DCS240+, attempting to use an address first used on a newer throttle or on JMRI may result in confusion and delay until the slots have been cleared."  [Emphasis added]

I think you really need to go either all-in on slots above 120, or all-out.  That is, the command station and the throttles should all be set the same - to use or not use.  Strangely, the defaults for the throttles are to not use slots above 120, while the defaults for the command stations that have slots above 120 is to use them.  Not clear to me exactly what JMRI does in its "auto" mode regarding slots above 120 under various circumstances.

Your railroad, your choice on whether to use the high slot numbers.

My interest in this is that my club is having the same problem of disappearing consists, and it does need the higher slots (or at least the HO guys think so).  So, I can learn some things from your situation, even if you chose to disable the higher slots.  But, I am hoping that you can also help us with some experiments with your setup, once we figure out how to make it work to your satisfaction.  You have the perfect test situation - just one operator and a DCS240 with only Digitrax throttles that can handle the high slots when set to do so.

[Dupesy]

I do have a TCS throttle and a UT4 but I have not had them connected during these tests.  I will probably set everything to not use the higher slot numbers at some point.

I never changed opsw44 so my presumption everything is now set to use the higher slots; I'll confirm later today.

What other things would you like me to test?

[Maletrain]

I think the first thing to do is to get your system working with your choice of not using the higher slots.  That would mean changing Op Sw 44 in the command station and the ID10s in your UT6Ds and DT602D.  If that can be made to work without losing consists, then you are good-to-go and I will have learned something useful.

If, after that, you are willing, I would like to see whether your system can be set up to use the high slots successfully, without losing consists.  That would mean changing the DCS240 Op SW 44 again, and the ID10s on the throttles.  I suspect that will not work without losing consists, so what I would want to see is some Slot Monitor screen shots before and after some specific tests.

But, first things first - let's get your system operating the way you want.  Then, if you are still game, we can do some further tests.

BTW, are you going to try the "insanity solution" to get the "bricked" UT6Ds going again, or are they headed to Florida?

[Dupesy]

more oddities today, upon power-up one consist is broken.  The 9316-501-7318.  501 being the top loco.  I built this consist yesterday before turning on ID10, and is one that had a duplicate top loco.  501-7318 respond to the consist, 9316 was kicked out and shows it consisted to Slot 5, but Slot 5 is not in use.  All other consists work, including the 1717 which was another one that had the top loco listed in two different Slots.  So it seems a mix of throttles with and without expanded slots is definitely a contributing factor.  Also of interest is the appearance of several locos in low-numbered Slots that didn't appear yesterday and haven't been selected by throttles.  While those engines are on the layout they are in staging and the track power has remained switched off to them.

I'm happy to try whatever tests you'd like to try.  I'll reset the CS and set everything to not using the higher Slots unless there's something you'd like to see tried first.

I can't keep trying to update those throttles as it appears they are stuck in update mode, and digilPLI will not see them when they are plugged into LocoNet.  So off they'll go.

Also, the 602D does show as different throttle IDs for each knob.  In my case 6C7C for right, 6C7D for left.

[Maletrain]

In the last Slot Monitor screen shot, I am seeing throttles 752E, 0271, 6043 and 6740, but no 6C7C or 6C7D (the 2 throttles on the DT602D).  So, I am guessing that you had not called up addresses with the DT602D, as of then.

Throttles listed for each slot are probably the last throttle to run that address, not necessarily the throttle that made a consist for the addresses that are in consists.  So, at this point, I can't tell very well what has transpired among throttles that are and are not able to access the slots above 120 in order to get to that condition.

It is really odd that so many slots are filled with addresses of locos that you say have not been used.  Back in reply #21, you posted " Yesterday I hit the 'loco reset' button, then rebuilt all of my consists using a UT6D."  And in reply #25, you posted "Instead of using the 'loco reset' button on the CS, I reset opsw 39, . . ."  So unless you also called up all of those other, non-consisted addresses after doing that, I am wondering why they show at all in the slots.  "Transponding" is turned on by default in the DCS240+ and in some decoders, but if most of those locos are on electrically dead tracks in staging, I would not think that could provide addresses to the command station.  Another thought is that perhaps those addresses are in "recall" positions in some of the throttles, and that somehow gets the addresses into slots in the command station through LocoNet.  But, the throttle assignments in the slot monitor seem to include the "TCS throttle and a UT4" that you mentioned on reply #40, even though you posted "but I have not had them connected during these tests."

So, something is really odd about what is included in the Slot Monitor after those 2 address purges.

I suggest that, when you do the next purge before rebuilding your consists with the ability to use the slots above 120 turned off in both the command station and the throttles, open the Slot Monitor after doing the purge and check that it is empty.  Click on "Force Refresh" to make sure that it is empty.  Then shut down the layout, wait a bit, and power up again.  Before doing anything else, check the Slot Monitor again.  Try "Force Refresh" again.  If anything shows up in any slot, please post a screen shot.

If it remains empty, then try rebuilding at least 2 of your consists and screen shot the Monitor results after forcing refresh.  If that looks right, try shutting down again, repowering and looking at the Monitor again, without using any throttles.  Do any other  addresses show up?  If not, try running the consists with the DT602D, then check the Monitor again for any changes in slot contents.  Remember to force refresh.  If nothing is different form the screen shot when you powered back up (after the shutdown after rebuilding the consists), try shutting down and repowering again to see if anything changes.

If your consists survive that intact, then you are probably good-to-go with the DCS240+ and Digitrax throttles set to not use the slots above 120.  But, you  would still need to make sure that using the UT4 and the TCS throttle don't cause problems.

When you use the TCS throttle, it will be interesting to see if some of those non-consisted addresses in staging show up again on the Monitor.

[Dupesy]

Throttles 6043 and 6740 are my two serviceable UT6Ds.  Throttle 0271 is JMRI.  No idea what 752E is.  I did connect my UT4 and TCS throttle last night, I have their IDs written down at home.  I don't believe 752E is either of them. 

After Post 21 I rebuilt ALL of my consists; those single locos that showed up randomly in Slot Monitor were in some of them.  After resetting ops39 and did not touch those (now broken) consists again, and they have not had track power put to them. I suspect the address may be in the recall list on one of the throttles. 

I will reset opsw39 tonight, and set everything to not use high numbered slots.  I am certain when I did both the "loco reset" button and opsw39 previously Slot Monitor was empty.