ESU, TCS, Zimo sound decoders — Thoughts & Advice

[_trainski]

Wondering if anyone had some thoughts on ESU/TCS/Zimo sound decoders for narrow hood diesel locomotives? I have been reading and considering the benefits of these brands. The best sound is top priority, but ultra smooth slow creep speeds are also a must. Some brands are “true” 16bit sound pipeline, some are 16bit but lower sample frequency, and some use onboard memory chips as big as 4GB. Programming software and hardware are both important and must be easy to navigate with have helpful tools for North American diesel locomotives. My preference would be for English menus and clearly written user manuals too. Forgive me if this has been brought up recently, I did search previous posts but I couldn’t find a thread. Please post your thoughts and recommendations if possible, I greatly thank you for any tips.

I currently use ESU LokProgrammer running in VirtualBox on a MacBook Pro, have good experience with sound bulletins, creating my own sound bulletins, and was very curious how TCS and Zimo might compare. I am also a location sound recordist with motion picture film experience, and planning on recording a handful of 1st generation diesel locomotives still running strong. 32bit 96kHz 6 track using high SPL microphones, contact microphones, and ambisonic microphones.

Cheers

[tehachapifan]

I would say ESU is your best bet and you are probably going to find most responses leaning strongly towards ESU. Best sound quality and motor control, in my opinion (with Zimo right up there as well). Plus, ESU has a massive and free sound file catalog (Zimo does not) and I believe is the only sound decoder on your list that is customizable to the level you are looking for (especially since you already have a LokProgrammer). I don't have much experience with TCS decoders.

[Dwight in Toronto]

I tried an ESU 58741 drop-in decoder in a Kato AC4400 several years ago, then used it as a guinea pig to explore and learn the LokProgrammer.  In the ensuing years I eventually upgraded my entire N scale loco roster exclusively to ESU.

Another feather-in-the-cap for ESU is their North American presence (Colorado Springs), and how amicable they are to deal with if you have a question, a problem, or need a decoder repair/replacement.

Zimo is highly regarded, but tehachapifan pointed out the shortcomings there. 

I have no experience with TCS sound decoders.

[jdcolombo]

Technically, Zimo decoders are at the top.

Practically, for US modelers, ESU is the overwhelming choice for all the reasons laid out so far: technical excellence on par with Zimo; a huge library of free US-prototype sound files recorded from actual running engines; a US presence that gets you very quick turnaround on failed decoders.  I wish their documentation were better, but Zimo's is far worse.

TCS isn't in the same ballpark, IMHO.  The technology and programmability is inferior and they don't have the mix of sizes, boards, etc. that ESU has.  The TCS WOW sound is far too big for any N scale hood diesel (the wired WOW Sound is nearly 1 1/2 inches long and over 16mm wide; the plug-in is just as big), probably too big for any cab diesel, and would even be problematic in a typical N scale tender.

John C.

[_trainski]

Technically, Zimo decoders are at the top.

Practically, for US modelers, ESU is the overwhelming choice for all the reasons laid out so far: technical excellence on par with Zimo; a huge library of free US-prototype sound files recorded from actual running engines; a US presence that gets you very quick turnaround on failed decoders.  I wish their documentation were better, but Zimo's is far worse.

TCS isn't in the same ballpark, IMHO.  The technology and programmability is inferior and they don't have the mix of sizes, boards, etc. that ESU has.  The TCS WOW sound is far too big for any N scale hood diesel (the wired WOW Sound is nearly 1 1/2 inches long and over 16mm wide; the plug-in is just as big), probably too big for any cab diesel, and would even be problematic in a typical N scale tender.

John C.

I was having an email exchange with TCS and I understand that a newer build concept is underway, utilizing NAND Flash storage instead of the current Micro SDCard configuration. Also there might be some N Scale sound decoders on the horizon including a WowSound version. This of course is theoretical and beginning stages, but interesting nonetheless. I am intrigued by the WowSound 16bit pipeline and how the sound files are triggered or looped. We’ll see what happens. For now I’m using strictly ESU LokSound 5 decoders and waiting for the brand new Zimo Elektronik “KLUG” programming device that is powered by a computer USB bus, and interacts with the ZSP software.

Cheers

[jdcolombo]

My personal view is that for model rr applications, particularly in smaller scales like HO and N, the theoretical advantage of 16 bit, high sample rate vs. 16 bit lower sample rate, or even a lower bit rate (though I think everyone uses 16 bit) is irrelevant.  We're not listening to these sounds via high-end (or even low-end) home stereo equipment, where (for example) the difference between 8 bit and 16 bit sound or 44.1khz vs. a low-rate MP3 is apparent (the difference between 16 and 24 bit, or 44.1khz vs. 96 or 192khz sample rates is far less apparent, if discernible at all).  And the sounds themselves are quite limited: a horn, a bell, and low-midrange rumble for a prime mover, or steam hiss and chuffs.  You're not listening for the timbral differences between a Steinway and a Bosendorfer Imperial Grand or Angela Hewitt's Fazioli.  You DO want a good timbral rendition of the horn and bell sounds (and steam hiss/chuffs on a steam loco), but their frequency response is limited, and there is no true low-end in the speakers we use anyway (everything completely drops off a cliff response-wise at 500hz).  The real useable FR of these speakers is something like 700hz - 12,000hz.

The real question isn't bit rate or sample rate, but number of channels.  You do want a decoder that can ring the bell, blow the horn, and reproduce the prime mover, air pumps, pop-off valves, and radiator fans all at the same time.  And you need a sound file that properly captures and mixes all these sounds appropriately.  I think ESU's sound files are superior to anything else commercially-available, and of course if you want to roll your own, they are basically the only game in town (Zimo, in theory, is an alternative, but in practice the hardware and lack of documentation makes it . . . difficult . . . ).

So . . . ESU is my choice today.  Tomorrow, who knows?  I started out in 1994 with Digitrax motor-only decoders that barely fit my hood diesels; then switched to Lenz (smaller, far better motor control), tried TCS along the way (better than Digitrax, not as good as Lenz), then tried an ESU V.3 sound install that was a disaster; finally hit what I thought was the jackpot with the ESU Select Micro in 2010-ish; and then pulled many of those out of the stuff I use for op sessions in favor of the V.5 and its more flexible and better sound files.  Maybe in 5 years TCS will be "the one."  But 5 years is a long time . . .

John C.

[_trainski]

Thank you for your kindness and sharing your personal experiences with N Scale sound decoders. I greatly appreciate the detailed information and technical considerations that support my initial post. Happy modelling.

Cheers

[peteski]

I was having an email exchange with TCS and I understand that a newer build concept is underway, utilizing NAND Flash storage instead of the current Micro SDCard configuration. Also there might be some N Scale sound decoders on the horizon including a WowSound version. This of course is theoretical and beginning stages, but interesting nonetheless. I am intrigued by the WowSound 16bit pipeline and how the sound files are triggered or looped. We’ll see what happens. For now I’m using strictly ESU LokSound 5 decoders and waiting for the brand new Zimo Elektronik “KLUG” programming device that is powered by a computer USB bus, and interacts with the ZSP software.

Cheers

Rewritable Flash storage, 16-Bit sound, and very flexible and complex improbability is already available in decoders from ZIMO and ESU (for prices compatible with TCS).  Not just theory.  And except for the fairly recent upgrade to 16bit sound, those other features have been present in ZIMO and ESU decoders for years.  they also have excellent motor control and lighting effects.  I got burned with buggy firmware in TCS decoders (and recently learned here that there might be more bugs in their more recent decoders) so I will likely not be going back to using them.

As for this constant race to increase the number of bits (which means better sound fidelity) in the audio samples storage, IMO this is an overkill for this application. Well at least in N scale. With the tiny speakers used in N scale being the weakest link, the sound fidelity is already drastically limited.  It will likely make a difference in larger scale models where better (and larger)  speakers with proper enclosures can be utilized.

[JeffB]

Interesting info guys... 

I was sold on ESU motor decoders a few years back when I installed a few in some scratchbuilt mechanisms I'd done for HOn30.  I used coreless motors to power them and after trying a TCS decoder, which did really weird things paired to a coreless motor, I switched to ESU on the recommendation of some online research.  I wasn't disappointed.  ESU's motor control is pretty darn fantastic. 

Purchased a LokSound V5 micro for a mechanism last year, but have yet to install it (I haven't gotten around to 3D printing the superstructure).  Flash forward to a few weeks ago, I converted one of my Rapido HO scale 44 tonners to HOn3 (for Sn2).  It was the DC/DCC ready version, so I had to purchase a NEXT18 decoder for it.  Did some more research on the Tube, and found several videos of guys converting their DCC equipped 44 tonners to use a Soundtraxx decoder, removing a perfectly fine ESU decoder.  Their reasoning was that the Soundtraxx decoder was more easily programmed, and it had auto headlight reversing, which they claimed the ESU decoder does not.

The kicker was...  In both the videos I watched, they claimed the sound was better, but they upgraded the speaker in the process, doing this at the same time as the decoder swap.  Which doesn't really prove anything. 

Watched a third video where the guy just installed a better speaker (Scale Sound Systems "cab" speaker/baffle) and lo and behold, dramatically better sound with the "stock" ESU decoder. 

I guess you stick with what you know...  I have a buddy that will only install Soundtraxx decoders in his locomotives.  Won't even try ESU's because he doesn't want to have to learn all new stuff, which I guess I get. 

Anyway...  Good to hear that ESU (and Zimo) are considered the go-to decoders for sound (which I didn't know) and motor control (which I'm firmly convinced of already).

Jeff

[peteski]

Sure, Sountraxx decoders (and same can be said for other U.S. domestic brands) sound decoders are easier to program because they don't have the flexibility of customization ESU and ZIMO decoders have. With customization comes complication. Fortunately The customization is greatly simplified when using the LokProgrammer hardware and software, and to some extent even by even using DecoderPro.  You can even create your own  sound projects.  But you can also just purchase ESU decoder with a sound project for your model installed by the dealer, and just do the typical basic programming (like what is needed for more basic decoders) to get your model  running. 

Sort of like HiFi equipment.  If you want easy and simple, you can have simple desktop stereo system with just the basic volume and balance control, or If you are really into audio, you can get an esoteric audio system with 11 band graphic equalizer, Dolby Surround, and lots of other features.

Just like with everything else, there will be camps of fans and also detractors of every product line out there.

[JeffB]

Just like with everything else, there will be camps of fans and also detractors of every product line out there.

You got that right Peteski!

You'd think the ability for advanced customization would appeal to more people.  I don't see the additional investment in the ESU LokProgrammer as being a big deal. Less than the cost of one current DCC sound equipped locomotive and the flexibility/options it opens up is well worth it.

Jeff

[tehachapifan]

People pulling out ESU sound decoders in favor of a different sound decoder is wild!!

[TravelingCarpenter]

People pulling out ESU sound decoders in favor of a different sound decoder is wild!!

    I definitely do not understand that. I guess you can call me a ESU snob,, oh well. If it ain’t broke don’t freaking fix it. I guess one could make point that the purple ones are just set on track and watch go. As ESU is more for customization. But to each their own.
Down with the purple, up with the blue!

TC

[JeffB]

    I definitely do not understand that. I guess you can call me a ESU snob,, oh well. If it ain’t broke don’t freaking fix it. I guess one could make point that the purple ones are just set on track and watch go. As ESU is more for customization. But to each their own.
Down with the purple, up with the blue!

TC

Yeah, I'm no expert on anything DCC sound, but just the idea of someone buying a DCC sound equipped locomotive, with a more or less top notch decoder, then swapping it out for one from a different manufacturer, doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Motor/Sound decoders aren't cheap...  The fact that the ESU Loksound V5 Micro is by most accounts a great decoder, well...

Jeff

[Bill H]

Technically, Zimo decoders are at the top.

Practically, for US modelers, ESU is the overwhelming choice for all the reasons laid out so far: technical excellence on par with Zimo; a huge library of free US-prototype sound files recorded from actual running engines; a US presence that gets you very quick turnaround on failed decoders.  I wish their documentation were better, but Zimo's is far worse.

TCS isn't in the same ballpark, IMHO.  The technology and programmability is inferior and they don't have the mix of sizes, boards, etc. that ESU has.  The TCS WOW sound is far too big for any N scale hood diesel (the wired WOW Sound is nearly 1 1/2 inches long and over 16mm wide; the plug-in is just as big), probably too big for any cab diesel, and would even be problematic in a typical N scale tender.

John C.

Thanks for that appropriate summary John. Excellent discussion points to share with my operating friends who are generally HO operators who keep asking me why I don't use either TCS or Digitrax.

Kind regards,
Bill