Test printing for Keystone Details restart

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Will you please let me build you a new website so you can sell these in style?

Pretty please?

[peteski]

Will you please let me build you a new website so you can sell these in style?

Pretty please?

Now that's an offer nobody should refuse (especially if he offers to maintain it). 

[Lemosteam]

Will you please let me build you a new website so you can sell these in style?

Pretty please?

Only if it's free, not the creation part, the housing part.  I loved my former website, but I cannot afford a subscription anymore.  I did hold onto the domain.

[Sokramiketes]

The actual wood beam "Q" caboose trucks would be useful too!  In N and P:48   

[robert3985]

The actual wood beam "Q" caboose trucks would be useful too!  In N and P:48 

I agree.  However, the "Q" trucks are an unfinished product I was planning on making/marketing myself, but...no telling how long that will go on eh? 

I happen to have builder's plans & measurements for the wood beamed "Q" trucks, along with prototype photos (I took myself at the Utah State Railroad Museum's actual CA-1 side-door caboose on display). If @Lemosteam - would be willing to produce these accurately (including brake-hangers on the truck ends), with both a centered mounting hole version PLUS an off-center mounting hole version, for both IMR CCS CA3/CA4's (centered hole) and as a direct correct-truck replacement on MTL 34' Wood Sheathed Cabooses w/Slanted Cupola in both UP Freight Car Red (brown) and UP Yellow, and do it fairly soon, I would be more than happy to supply this information.

"Q" trucks, the ones developed by the CB&Q in the late 1800's in the 5 foot axle spacing, have been available from Panamint Models Shapeways Store for years before Shapeways went belly-up.  However, these were the original late 1800's CB&Q versions, which were a bit (but noticeably) different than the made in-house UP versions, the UP versions having less top-of-the-beam nut/bolt details and more nut/bolt details on the sheet-metal sheath that went over the top oak wooden beam, which also was slightly taller.

The Panamint versions were "close enough" for me, even though the Shapeways printing on them was sketchy, sometimes being pretty good, and other times horrendous.  I am sure that John's Anycubic D2's will print these fabulously, with exponential better quality than what was coming out of Shapeways.

Photo (1) - Panamint Models Shapeways "Q" Trucks - CB&Q Version Side View:


Photo (2) - Panamint Models Shapeways "Q" Trucks - CB&Q Version 3/4 View:


Photo (3) - Panamint Models Shapeways "Q" Trucks - CB&Q Version Mounted on Golden West Models CA3/CA4 Unpainted:


You'll note the crappy Shapeways layering effect which obscures the details on these trucks.  They look "acceptable" from a distance, but close up...they're trash.  Some were better than others, but none of them had no obvious layer lines.

If I had done these on my Anycubic 8k Mono M3 Premium 10" printer, I would consider them to be failures.

Photo (4) - Better Quality Panamint Models Shapeways "Q" Trucks - CB&Q Version on My Kit-bashed UP CA-1:


However, the largest market for these is every MTL UP Wood Sheathed 34' Caboose ever made...in both Armour Yellow or Freight Car Red schemes.  Although Panamint made these with both centered and offset bolster holes, on my MTL UP cabooses, I use the ones with the centered holes, which spaces the trucks where they should be, and avoids the "Toonerville Trolly" look that the offset hole ones tend to produce...and there's no rotational interference between the truck ends and the platform steps.

Photo (5) - Panamint Models Shapeways "Q" Trucks - CB&Q Version on one of my otherwise completely unmodified MTL wood sheathed UP CA-Class Cabooses:


Maybe most modelers won't care if the wrong trucks are on every MTL UP CA-Class caboose ever sold, but, there has to be a percentage of modelers who DO care. and just the addition of the proper trucks goes a loooong way (I think) to make the MTL cabooses look much better, as well as the IMR CCS CA3/CA4's.  Now, if MTL would only number them for CA class cabooses instead of CA-1's! 

IN ADDITION...MTL doesn't make a proper "early" caboose truck.  Their "Caboose Truck" is a hybrid with leaf springs and roller bearings.  Having no journal boxes jumps out and smacks me across the face when I see the MTL trucks on their UP/SP "Common Standard" 34' Wooden Cabooses...which are proper models for both UP CA-Class and SP C30-1 cabooses.  Vulcan 40 ton leaf-spring caboose trucks for the SP cabooses, and the same for UP's CA-Class cabooses...along with Bettendorf 40 ton T-section caboose trucks.

That's probably enough...and I wouldn't exactly call this thread drift since it's about potential products for John that have a wide application, and might be a profitable investment of his time.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[Lemosteam]

I agree.  However, the "Q" trucks are an unfinished product I was planning on making/marketing myself, but...no telling how long that will go on eh? 

I happen to have builder's plans & measurements for the wood beamed "Q" trucks, along with prototype photos (I took myself at the Utah State Railroad Museum's actual CA-1 side-door caboose on display). If @Lemosteam - would be willing to produce these accurately (including brake-hangers on the truck ends), with both a centered mounting hole version PLUS an off-center mounting hole version, for both IMR CCS CA3/CA4's (centered hole) and as a direct correct-truck replacement on MTL 34' Wood Sheathed Cabooses w/Slanted Cupola in both UP Freight Car Red (brown) and UP Yellow, and do it fairly soon, I would be more than happy to supply this information.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

@robert3985 , please see my Design request tab on the excel file.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Only if it's free, not the creation part, the housing part.  I loved my former website, but I cannot afford a subscription anymore.  I did hold onto the domain.

I have some thoughts on that. I'll give you a shout next week.

[Lemosteam]

Another new truck. A Bettendorf swing frame Caboose truck, the frame directly scaled from the casting drawing.

This printer tho. Here is a side view showing the the hair thin supports inside the frame openings, and the reason I like using Lychee for supports. Luckily I got the axle cup width just right and they roll amazingly.

[Chris333]

Awww now you're just showing off! 

[bbussey]

Atlas and Fox Valley both have accurate leaf spring friction bearing center-bolster-hole caboose trucks. The FVM trucks are even scale width.

[robert3985]

Atlas and Fox Valley both have accurate leaf spring friction bearing center-bolster-hole caboose trucks. The FVM trucks are even scale width.

Sooo...what is meant by "accurate"???  There are lots of different kinds of prototype caboose trucks, with leaf springs and friction bearings.  There's Andrews, Barber-Bettendorf, Gould, ARA, Diamond, ACF, National, General Steel, Vulcan, Commonwealth...etc., etc. and they're all different looking, and were used by different roads.

Since Fox Valley Models got bought by ScaleTrains, I don't see ANY FVM trucks for sale there...just the wheelsets.  I did a quick online search and the only FVM "caboose" trucks I saw were their Milwaukee Rd "Straight" caboose trucks, and their Milwaukee Rd "Drop-Center" caboose trucks.  Evidently the B&O Caboose trucks have been sold out for years, but...they look pretty similar to Andrews 40 ton leaf spring caboose trucks, which FVM made in HO scale for their HO Transfer Caboose.  Maybe the B&O trucks can be found on eBay or in the online store world.

Atlas' offering is called a "Friction Bearing Caboose Truck" and looks to be close to a Barber-Bettendorf Narrow Leaf Spring truck...but, the photo is so dark I can't tell for sure. EDIT: It's a Barber-Bettendorf Swing-Motion Leaf-Spring/Friction-Bearing Caboose Truck...not too well done.

Kato also offers a "Caboose Truck" that looks close to the same Barber-Bettendorf Narrow Leaf Spring truck with friction bearings, and it has electrical pickups...but, the frames look really wide because of the bronze bearing inserts.

I have to say that John @Lemosteam - is doing it right...doing his 3D modeling using prototype plans...and, his version of the Bettendorf Wide Leaf Spring Trucks EDIT: Barber-Bettendorf Swing-Motion Leaf-Spring/Friction-Bearing Caboose Truck looks exponentially better than any of the other N-scale caboose trucks I saw when lookin' around this morning.  3D Resin Printing, with no ejection relief needed, really makes a huge difference in the detail that can be easily done, but simply cannot be done with injection molding technology.

I'm also highly impressed with the speed John can do his modeling, supporting and printing.  The 3D modeling still takes me forever.

My research for the trucks used on the SP C30-1 cabooses says that although some of them used "Bettendorf trucks"...it doesn't specify which ones, and that the Vulcan Trucks were by far the ones mostly used.  UP used the Barber-Bettendorf T-section 40 ton caboose trucks on both the CA and CA-1's, with Diamond Arch Bars on a number of CA's when they were first built.  The T-section trucks have a very distinctive look, much different than this Bettendorf truck John's made.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[Lemosteam]

Atlas and Fox Valley both have accurate leaf spring friction bearing center-bolster-hole caboose trucks. The FVM trucks are even scale width.

@bbussey , These are for a specific unnamed project for a customer. The entire design is to scale, with the exception of the underbody accuracy, there is not much info available for that, but the relief is serviceable and proportionally reasonable. These are designed to achieve scale ride height, with a lowered center bolster that uses MT bolster pins. I must say though that your wheelers look exceptional on these trucks.

@robert3985 , my cad system has the ability to borrow data, by link, from other cad models allowing me to slap bits and pieces together very quickly. I also model the bare minimum and use reflect operations to get the rest. I can also link bodies within a model, such as the sideframe, copy and paste that move it to the correct width across center, design another body as a bolster between the sideframes and join them as a solid using Boolean operations.

I can also do this within the context of an assembly so I can design the truck between the top of rail and the bolster surface on the frame.

Just been doing it forever is all.

The following may seem counter-intuitive but of all the support tools that I have used, including modeling them in cad, Lychee has the most flexible tools for that, such as the hair wire supports I mentioned and that suits well with the D2. So, I design, save as an stl, load into Lychee, add supports, save the Lychee scene, and export with supports and overwrite the original stl. Lychee also has the capability to recognize when an original stl has been updated and the supports are updated automatically to the revised stl. Sometimes I have to fix some supports depending on how drastically I have changed the CAD.

Then I load that supported stl into AC, where I slice and save the scene and the sliced file. I do this because I think the slicer that comes with the machine is developed and coded for that machine, so I feel I can trust the results. This allows me to go back and edit any level. For a quick re slice within minutes. I also keep all of the files in the same folder as the cad model, so I can go back to the master data and rerun the process.

Dunno, it works well for me.

Also, since I have all of the supported stl files, separated, I can just make a unique scene in AC for a customer save it to the customer folder, slicing and printing just the files the sunstones paid for.

[bbussey]

Bowser makes T-frame trucks, used on their caboose rolling stock and currently on the newer Bachmann higher-end rolling stock. They also are appropriate for the upcoming ESM Lackawanna wood caboose kit. But I don’t remember if they are leaf spring or not.

Yes, @robert3985, I understand the need for truck frames that don’t exist. Whenever I finish my O&W cabooses, they will ride on Wolfe truck frames. But I don’t understand recreating truck frames already available commercially for operating rolling stock. Contest models and museum-quality models, perhaps.

[robert3985]

@robert3985 , my cad system has the ability to borrow data, by link, from other cad models allowing me to slap bits and pieces together very quickly. I also model the bare minimum and use reflect operations to get the rest. I can also link bodies within a model, such as the sideframe, copy and paste that move it to the correct width across center, design another body as a bolster between the sideframes and join them as a solid using Boolean operations.

I can also do this within the context of an assembly so I can design the truck between the top of rail and the bolster surface on the frame.

Just been doing it forever is all.

The following may seem counter-intuitive but of all the support tools that I have used, including modeling them in cad, Lychee has the most flexible tools for that, such as the hair wire supports I mentioned and that suits well with the D2. So, I design, save as an stl, load into Lychee, add supports, save the Lychee scene, and export with supports and overwrite the original stl. Lychee also has the capability to recognize when an original stl has been updated and the supports are updated automatically to the revised stl. Sometimes I have to fix some supports depending on how drastically I have changed the CAD.

Then I load that supported stl into AC, where I slice and save the scene and the sliced file. I do this because I think the slicer that comes with the machine is developed and coded for that machine, so I feel I can trust the results. This allows me to go back and edit any level. For a quick re slice within minutes. I also keep all of the files in the same folder as the cad model, so I can go back to the master data and rerun the process.

Dunno, it works well for me.

Also, since I have all of the supported stl files, separated, I can just make a unique scene in AC for a customer save it to the customer folder, slicing and printing just the files the sunstones paid for.

John @Lemosteam - Thanks for the printing information! 

I also use subscription Lychee because of the supports and its ability to make Planar Cuts (making two or more different parts out of several cut sections)...which I can modify & save before slicing if I need to slightly modify a part without having to save an stl file, open it in Fusion 360...modify, save, reopen in Lychee.  In many cases this Lychee feature saves me a lot of time.

Hmmm...the whole idea of saving the scene, then slicing with my AC slicer that came with my machine is a verrrry interesting idea!  I'll have to give that a try tomorrow when I'm done with some parts I'm working on!

Bowser makes T-frame trucks, used on their caboose rolling stock and currently on the newer Bachmann higher-end rolling stock. They also are appropriate for the upcoming ESM Lackawanna wood caboose kit. But I don’t remember if they are leaf spring or not.

Yes, @robert3985, I understand the need for truck frames that don’t exist. Whenever I finish my O&W cabooses, they will ride on Wolfe truck frames. But I don’t understand recreating truck frames already available commercially for operating rolling stock. Contest models and museum-quality models, perhaps.

@bbussey - I went to the Bowser site looking for N-scale Bettendorf T-section leaf-spring/friction-bearing caboose trucks for sale, and none are offered.  The closest (although not very close) are their PRR Caboose Trucks.  None of the four trucks have leaf springs, so would be unsuitable for use on the majority of North American cabooses.

I then went to the Bachmann site, also looking for N-scale Bettendorf T-section leaf-spring/friction-bearing caboose trucks for sale, and no trucks whatsoever are offered in N-scale, even though on their newer higher-end N-scale "Northeast Steel" cabooses, they're equipped with a type of (maybe) Andrews leaf-spring/friction-bearing caboose trucks...but, they're not offered for sale separately...even though they are for sale in HO.  However, they look quite different from the two types of Andrews caboose trucks I'm familiar with...the L-Section and the U-section caboose trucks.

Just for clarity's sake here are some photos of both prototype and high-quality scale steel caboose trucks which would probably have been on most UP CA and SP C30-series wood cabooses (MTL 34' Wood Cabooses) and on other roads' cabooses that I'm not familiar with...

Photo (1) - Prototype Vulcan 40 ton Leaf-Spring/Friction-Bearing Caboose Trucks on SP "C-302", the most common caboose truck on SP C30 series wooden cabooses...Which caboose happens to be an almost perfect match for the MTL 34' Wood Sheathed Caboose with Slanted Cupola and Straight Cupola:


Photo (2) - Prototype Vulcan Trucks Under UP Wood Caboose, Which is virtually identical to the SP C30-1&2 cabooses:


Photo (3) - 1/4" Proto48 Model of Vulcan 40 ton Leaf Spring Friction Bearing Caboose Truck, which was on many UP and very many SP wood cabooses:



Photo (4) - Prototype UP CA-Class Freight Car Red Caboose (a 3-window variation) in 1948 with Barber-Bettendorf T-Section 40 ton Leaf-Spring/Friction-Bearing Caboose trucks:


Photo (5) - HO-Scale Brass Models of Barber-Bettendorf T-Section 40ton Leaf-Spring/Friction-Bearing Caboose Trucks which are much different from Bettendorf 40ton Wide-Leaf-Spring/Friction-Bearing Caboose Trucks, and which would have been on many UP CA Series Cabooses:



Photo (6) - Prototype UP CA Series Caboose in Armour Yellow Scheme fresh out of the paint shop in 1948 wearing Andrews L-Section Leaf-Spring/Friction-Bearing caboose trucks with the journal box lids open on the rear truck:


Photo (7) - Prototype UP CA Series Caboose in Early Freight Car Red scheme wearing Andrews L-Section Leaf-Spring/Friction-Bearing caboose trucks:


Photo (8 ) - HO-Scale Brass Andrews L-Section Leaf-Spring/Friction-Bearing caboose trucks:


Photo (9) - Bachmann recent higher quality Northeastern Caboose with what they call "Andrews Trucks", which I can't find any prototype photos of...which leads me to believe these are not accurate:



I need to correct my opinion about John's recently printed Bettendorf caboose trucks...they're models of Bettendorf/Barber-Bettendorf Swing-Motion Leaf-Spring/Friction-Bearing (Standard Car Truck Co.) Caboose Trucks, which were under very many AT&SF cabooses.  Although I couldn't find any photos of these under UP or SP wood-sheathed cabooses, I found similar (not actually the same) photos of SP steel cabooses with similar (Barber-Bettendorf Wide-Leaf-Spring/Friction-Bearing) caboose trucks, which look close to the Swing-Motion trucks, but are definitely different, not being dimensionally as tall.


In N-scale, there were/are four manufacturers who make models of the Barber-Bettendorf Swing-Motion Leaf-Spring/Friction-Bearing Caboose Truck...that would be Atlas, Kato, John @Lemosteam and (no longer available) Trainworx.  I found photos of these at Mark's Spookshow @spookshow webpage, and I borrowed his photo of the Atlas model to have a direct comparison between John's truck and the Atlas truck (which IS available). I didn't bother with the Kato model, because it's poorly done.  I'll post a photo of the prototype trucks under an AT&SF steel caboose first...then a photo of the comparo between the two models.

Photo (10) - Prototype AT&SF Steel Caboose with Barber-Bettendorf Swing-Motion Leaf-Spring/Friction-Bearing Caboose Trucks:


Photo (11) - Comparo of N-scale Models of the Barber-Bettendorf Swing-Motion Leaf-Spring/Friction-Bearing Caboose Trucks by (bottom) Atlas, and (top) John:



John's are definitely more prototypical looking as the Atlas version is much much too thick, and the spring housing is shaped incorrectly.


If it were up to me, I'd put the Barber-Bettendorf Swing-Motion trucks John's already done as a part, since that particular truck was introduced in 1920 and was one of the most popular caboose truck made, used my many roads.  Then, since John's already got the friction-bearing and the roller-bearing versions of UP's Outside Swing Hanger Caboose Trucks finished...include them also for IMR/CCS CA3/CA4 cabooses.  Then, I'd do the oak-framed UP "Q" Caboose Trucks to fit both the IMR/CCS UP CA3/CA4 Riveted Steel Cabooses and MTL's 34' Wood-Sheathed UP CA-Class cabooses in Freight Car Red, Armour Yellow, and Billboard Schemes.  Lastly, I'd include the Vulcan 40 ton Leaf-Spring/Friction-Bearing Caboose Truck because it was on both many UP wood CA-Class cabooses, and very many SP C30 Series wood cabooses.

I really like the Barber-Bettendorf T-Section 40 ton Caboose Trucks, mainly because they're so distinctive looking, and also the Diamond Arch-Bar Leaf-Spring Caboose Truck that were on many late 1800's and early 1900's cabooses.

As far as re-creating trucks that already exist in N-scale, since the selection is so verrry limited in N-scale as far as caboose trucks are concerned, and the scale fidelity is so obviously greater than other injection molded trucks of supposedly the same type...why not offer contest-quality versions of those missing trucks, or poorly done existing models??? Especially since John can whip the models out so very efficiently??

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[Sokramiketes]

I second my colleage's rather lengthy motion, and relinquish my time if he needs more.