Kato Unitrack #6 turnout power routing is intermittent

[brokemoto]

Has anyone else had this problem................?

I have; several; both #4 and #6.  If I am throwing them manually, at times, if I nudge the black plastic thing, the continuity will return.  Other times, pressing on the turnout will work.

I am suspecting that the problem is in the two prongs on the cross piece or the plates.  Some of them have gotten so bad that I have had to replace them.

I’ve never had an issue with any of my turnouts Y-E-T.
ATSF_Ron

FIFY

I disassembled the second turnout which had been even more operationally troublesome than the first. The mechanism appeared as pristine as that of the first turnout. I scrubbed all contact surfaces with a tiny amount of No-Ox-Id A-Special on a cotton swab, including top and bottom pivot surfaces of the rotating switch pole. Be careful when removing the pole piece; it is very delicate and can bend and crease easily (don't ask how I know this!). After assembling and re-installing the turnout in a staging yard, it no longer failed to route power to the selected track.

Thank you for the update.  I will be sure to try this.

My remaining eight #6 turnouts and two scissors crossovers have not developed this problem, Y-E-T.

FIFY

I thought these switches were BULLETPROOF.



Doug

Even Kato has its flaws.

[Trnsrus]

... if I nudge the black plastic thing, the continuity will return.  Other times, pressing on the turnout will work.

I am suspecting that the problem is in the two prongs on the cross piece or the plates.  Some of them have gotten so bad that I have had to replace them.

FIFY

Thank you for the update.  I will be sure to try this.

Please let me and the group know what the insides of the turnout looks like and if my remedy is of any help.

[OldEastRR]

Well, sometimes, you know, on that long stormy ocean ride over, some containers get sea  water in them and it gets to the contents. Or a Chinese supplier of solder uses inferior or compromised material and some of it winds up in this or that bunch of items. The global supply chain ain't like a ma & pa business. Inferior quality is always a wild card in this business. Whaddya expect, a money-back guarantee? HAW! So old fashioned!!!

[MK]

I believe Kato turnouts are Made In Japan.  Not that it means 100% quality but manufacturing variances do happen.

[NorsemanJack]

I have also have been soldering on a professional (as a techincian) and personal (as a hobby) level for over 40 years, and to me those solder joints look acceptable.  There is a right amount of solder for a good joint (not too little or too much), they are smooth (not chunkiness), and the wires are cleanly stripped of insulation.  Visually the only flaw is that the surfaces aren't  shiny and tiny amount of flux is visible.

As I mentioned, today's lead-free alloy solder, especially when using manual soldering, will not harden to a smooth surface. I still use the 63/37 electronic solder and good solder joints using that solder will have mirror-like surface finish.  But when I have to rework lead-free solder joints, mine will look similar to the ones in the Kato turnout.

I'm sorry, but those solder joints just look like crap.  If I still had some Kato turnouts, I would pull the back off of one to see what they look like.  Maybe somebody else can do this and post a photo.  Thanks.

I'm not suggesting that poor solder is the cause for these problems.  I am suggesting that these turnouts have a dark, unknown history despite the fact that somebody sold them as "new."  Prove me wrong.

[NorsemanJack]

I have also have been soldering on a professional (as a techincian)

Did you work in the defense industry, working to Mil-Std imposed quality standards?  Something like that would get a person fired (if they weren't protected by the union - not that there's anything wrong with that).

[mmagliaro]

An important factor in analyzing this problem is how many times you have actuated those contacts.  Would you say it is hundreds of times?  500?
thousands?  Or only 40 or 50?  If it is a low number (like, say, under 200), then I would be inclined to think the center piece just didn't have enough bend in it to make reliable contact, right from the factory, and after a little while, that started to fail.  So I would add a little bend to it as Peteski suggested.
If it is a lot of times (like 1000), then I would say wear and oxidation are the culprits, and cleaning or bending isn't going to permanently fix this.

If I understand you correctly, you cleaned those brass-colored contact surfaces in the photo.  I would not expect that to be a permanent solution.
If dirt or oxidation were causing this, it is only a matter of time before those surfaces will need to be cleaned again.  I have pause about the brass
color of those surfaces.

The pivot piece looks more like phosphor bronze, which I would expect since it also has to hold a spring tension
against the surfaces below it.  If it were me, I would try soldering a thin sheet of phosphor bronze over the brass areas.  It doesn't need to be big.
Just a piece that covers the track of the contact finger.  And also solder a nice thin (like .010") phosphor bronze washer in place under the center. Now, all the contact will be bronze to bronze.   Phosphor bronze would be harder, wear less, and maintain better contact.

Oh, and those four fixed tabs in the four corners?  I'd solder them to the board pads.  They don't have to move, and those are just 4 points of
possible failure.  If none of this works, I'd start worrying about the 4 little contact areas at the other end of those 4 tabs, where they go down into
the little holes in the plastic in your photo and touch the undersides of the rails.  Are you sure those are touching firmly, and if they are spot welded,
one of them hasn't broken free?

[NorsemanJack]

An important factor in analyzing this problem is how many times you have actuated those contacts.  Would you say it is hundreds of times?  500?
thousands?  Or only 40 or 50?  If it is a low number (like, say, under 200), then I would be inclined to think the center piece just didn't have enough bend in it to make reliable contact, right from the factory, and after a little while, that started to fail.  So I would add a little bend to it as Peteski suggested.
If it is a lot of times (like 1000), then I would say wear and oxidation are the culprits, and cleaning or bending isn't going to permanently fix this.

If I understand you correctly, you cleaned those brass-colored contact surfaces in the photo.  I would not expect that to be a permanent solution.
If dirt or oxidation were causing this, it is only a matter of time before those surfaces will need to be cleaned again.  I have pause about the brass
color of those surfaces.

The pivot piece looks more like phosphor bronze, which I would expect since it also has to hold a spring tension
against the surfaces below it.  If it were me, I would try soldering a thin sheet of phosphor bronze over the brass areas.  It doesn't need to be big.
Just a piece that covers the track of the contact finger.  And also solder a nice thin (like .010") phosphor bronze washer in place under the center. Now, all the contact will be bronze to bronze.   Phosphor bronze would be harder, wear less, and maintain better contact.

Oh, and those four fixed tabs in the four corners?  I'd solder them to the board pads.  They don't have to move, and those are just 4 points of
possible failure.  If none of this works, I'd start worrying about the 4 little contact areas at the other end of those 4 tabs, where they go down into
the little holes in the plastic in your photo and touch the undersides of the rails.  Are you sure those are touching firmly, and if they are spot welded,
one of them hasn't broken free?

That sounds like a lot of work.  I would just buy a new switch.  If this were a systemic problem, we would all be well aware of it.  I suspect mostly isolated and with unknowns regarding why these normally robust Kato turnouts are acting up.

[dem34]

End of the day. Part of why even on mostly DC layouts its generally considered best practice not to rely on turnout power routing for any kind of feed regardless of brand reputation. Stuff oxidizes not matter how careful you are. And contacts inaccessible after install are always problematic.

[Doug G.]

Those solder connections might not look the best but they are electrically fine. See how the solder has traveled up the wire and there's no dimple where the solder meets the wire. It's good. And, the solder to pad connections are OK, too.

Some of us would much rather fix a device rather than give up and buy a new one. Really not a lot of work to apply Max's solutions.

Doug

[mmagliaro]

Those solder connections might not look the best but they are electrically fine. See how the solder has traveled up the wire and there's no dimple where the solder meets the wire. It's good. And, the solder to pad connections are OK, too.

Some of us would much rather fix a device rather than give up and buy a new one. Really not a lot of work to apply Max's solutions.

Doug

I was going to say just this.  The fixes I'm suggesting, cutting out small sheets of phosphor bronze and soldering them, and then soldering all the fixed tabs, would not take more than 30 minutes.  The worst part is removing this thing from the layout, especially if you have ballast and other scenery to clean up and repair afterward.  As for whether this is a wide-spread problem, I don't know.  But this is not the first time
I have heard of it, and not just on turnouts.  A friend of mine had a Unitrak double slip switch that did this also.  If you fix it with better
metals and more soldered connections, it lowers the odds of recurrance.  Replacing the switch does not.
But above else, if I had a layout full of these things, I would want to know what is causing the failures.  One must learn what the problem is in order to conquer it.

Of course, you could always install your own microswitch on a linkage from the throwbar.

[NorsemanJack]

I was going to say just this.  The fixes I'm suggesting, cutting out small sheets of phosphor bronze and soldering them, and then soldering all the fixed tabs, would not take more than 30 minutes.  The worst part is removing this thing from the layout, especially if you have ballast and other scenery to clean up and repair afterward.  As for whether this is a wide-spread problem, I don't know.  But this is not the first time
I have heard of it, and not just on turnouts.  A friend of mine had a Unitrak double slip switch that did this also.  If you fix it with better
metals and more soldered connections, it lowers the odds of recurrance.  Replacing the switch does not.
But above else, if I had a layout full of these things, I would want to know what is causing the failures.  One must learn what the problem is in order to conquer it.

Of course, you could always install your own microswitch on a linkage from the throwbar.

It would most certainly take more than 30 minutes for some of us.  I think I spent 15 minutes just trying to decipher that post.

[peteski]

Did you work in the defense industry, working to Mil-Std imposed quality standards?  Something like that would get a person fired (if they weren't protected by the union - not that there's anything wrong with that).

LOL no, but we are talking about a toy train here - a commercial-grade product for goodness sake. Not something which will be inside a missile or be going to the moon.  The workers assembling these turnouts aren't Mil-Std certified, not they have Mil-grade salaries.

Those solder joints have nice dome shape, no "snots".  They could have a bit more solder to fully cover all the strands of the wire. As I see it, the rough surface is partially due to them using lead-free solder and there is likely flux residue making it look worse (These boars don't get a wash after soldering).  As I mentioned, they to me seem perfectly adequate for their application in a commercial-grade product.

[NorsemanJack]

LOL no, but we are talking about a toy train here - a commercial-grade product for goodness sake. Not something which will be inside a missile or be going to the moon.  The workers assembling these turnouts aren't Mil-Std certified, not they have Mil-grade salaries.

Those solder joints have nice dome shape, no "snots".  They could have a bit more solder to fully cover all the strands of the wire. As I see it, the rough surface is partially due to them using lead-free solder and there is likely flux residue making it look worse (These boars don't get a wash after soldering).  As I mentioned, they to me seem perfectly adequate for their application in a commercial-grade product.

Yeah, I get it.  That said, a properly trained worker takes no longer to make a beautiful solder joint than what we see in those photos.  Don't even get me started on photos that are posted of somebody who has soldered motor feeds onto a decoder.

[peteski]

Yeah, I get it.  That said, a properly trained worker takes no longer to make a beautiful solder joint than what we see in those photos.  Don't even get me started on photos that are posted of somebody who has soldered motor feeds onto a decoder.

I understand your pain quite well. That is why I take my models apart I often redo the solder joints and/or replace some of the wires.  But on the other  hand, I guess we also have to have realistic expectation about solder joint quality in our little toys. Just like you I often don't like what I see.

As for modelers' soldering skills, most of them have no soldering experience or training other than the few decoders they installed, so there is some "interesting" work being shown in photos posted online.

You, with your professional soldering experience are an exception in this hobby rather than the rule.