Author Topic: Best metal to use for etched details for N scale?  (Read 1179 times)

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SAH

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Re: Best metal to use for etched details for N scale?
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2025, 06:21:18 PM »
+2
@SAH
Very nice!  The AMB NKP 1000-series was very well done, but of course not available any more.  Hence my foray into the current project (although I probably would have hesitated trying to build a dozen of the AMB's anyway).


Here's a photo of the B&O under construction.  I used what I could salvage from the end railing print.  If I were to build a fleet I would definitely etch all the metal parts and wouldn't hesitate to do everything in SS.  Soldering was not necessary for any of the builds I showed.  The hopper metal parts follow the same thought process.

Steve Holzheimer
Lakewood, OH
Modeling the AC&Y Spur 4 Serving the Tire Industry

mmagliaro

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Re: Best metal to use for etched details for N scale?
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2025, 11:07:59 PM »
0
Strong vote "yes" for phosphor bronze.  Solderable, springy, strong, easier to cut and file than stainless.
Strong "no" vote on brass.  Deforms too easily.  Doesn't hold long straight clean lines very well, especially on parts
that are handled.

bbussey

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Re: Best metal to use for etched details for N scale?
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2025, 12:34:50 AM »
+3
Thanks for that explanation.  I actually have some 1000-series cabooses that I had done via a guy who had a Shapeways store about 8-10 years ago.  They are serviceable, but used printed grabs/ladders/end rails that were WAY too thick (and even at that, still very fragile) and have always been a bit of an irritation when I look at them in photos of my layout.  The advances in 3D printing since that time and the use of etched detail parts will produce a much better model, I think/hope.

A lot of modelers get accustomed to working with one medium when building a model.  I always combine multiple methods — 3D-printed, polyurethane castings, etched metals, extruded metal shapes, laser-cut wood and cardstock, stock plastic parts — whatever makes the model-building easier.  For example, I'm not going to design a caboose smokestack when the Micro-Trains plastic part is viable.  I'm going to embed a Micro-Trains coupler pocket in the floor/underframe of a model and etch the coupler box lid from brass to give me another .020" or so clearance for the outer axles.

Regarding the SS nippers, pretty sure I bought my latest pair on Amazon.  Stainless steel wire cutters actually, but they work on removing stainless steel etched parts from frets.
Bryan Busséy
NHRHTA #2246
NSE #1117
www.bbussey.net
Bridgeport & New London in N scale


peteski

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Re: Best metal to use for etched details for N scale?
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2025, 08:57:26 AM »
+2
Stainless Steel used for etching is not a very hard metal (but of course it is harder than brass or brass alloys).  However I find it quite easy to cut the parts out using regular hobby knife with any of your favorite blades in it.  My secret is with what I use for a cutting base surface.  Surfaces like wood or a hobby cutting mats are too soft and the parts will sink in and bend while being separated from the fret.  I use piece of aluminum. Any thickness 1/16" or thicker.  The aluminum is stiff enough not to deflect while cutting, but soft enough not to dull the blade's edge.  While cutting I rock the knife side to side until I cut through the thin support connectors.  Works really well.  Actually I use the same method  for brass etchings too.
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jdcolombo

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Re: Best metal to use for etched details for N scale?
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2025, 09:05:50 AM »
0
Thanks, everyone.

I think I'm going to try stainless.  I'm not going to be soldering anything, and while I don't expect to be handling these models a lot, they will get picked up and set down in another place every so often while the hand of God re-stages the layout for the next op session.  :)  I'm a little wary of painting issues, but you all have done it, so it is clearly do-able. 

Will try to post photos of progress once this project really gets going, which I expect to be many weeks down the road yet.

John C.

peteski

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Re: Best metal to use for etched details for N scale?
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2025, 09:33:16 AM »
0
Can someone explain to me why painting stainless steel is more difficult than painting any other metal (like brass)?

Metal is metal, If you use an appropriate primer or a paint designed to work directly on metal, the type of metal should not make a difference.  As the photos I posted earlier show, I had no problem painting the stainless steel railings.

We are painting a model which will spend its life in a dry climate-controlled environment, not going to some place (like the moon) exposed to weather extremes. Maybe our own "paint guy" @muktown128 could chime in?
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muktown128

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Re: Best metal to use for etched details for N scale?
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2025, 10:56:25 AM »
+1
Stainless steel has a passivated surface due to oxide layer that forms when the metals react with oxygen.  This oxide layer resists corrosion and also doesn’t allow coatings to “bite” into the surface.  In order to obtain adhesion, the use of an etching primer or mechanical abrasion to roughen up the surface is recommended. 

Lemosteam

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Re: Best metal to use for etched details for N scale?
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2025, 11:03:17 AM »
+2
I like the stainless myself.  As @daniel_leavitt2000 found out, nickel silver for thin parts is too soft.  PB is OK too but i find it easy to deform as well, just not as bad as brass.

For removing from any material fret, you cannot beat these.  I have never had to file or sand any tags off.  If you do leave a partial tag, you can slide these right up to the finished edge and shave slivers off with them.  They also shear wire really well without a burr at the cut or a squished end. Even @Scott Lupia loves them and he is the stainless etch master!

 

https://www.amazon.com/Fiskars-Non-stick-Softgrip-Micro-Tip-Pruning/dp/B01LQ8E5KK?th=1

With respect to @muktown128 's response, agree, but what I do to mitigate and add paint bite is air-erase the fret before removing the parts (mechanical abrasion).
John "Lemosteam" LeMerise

Sokramiketes

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Re: Best metal to use for etched details for N scale?
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2025, 11:26:49 AM »
0
Metal is metal

Ha!

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peteski

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Re: Best metal to use for etched details for N scale?
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2025, 12:02:05 PM »
+1
Stainless steel has a passivated surface due to oxide layer that forms when the metals react with oxygen.  This oxide layer resists corrosion and also doesn’t allow coatings to “bite” into the surface.  In order to obtain adhesion, the use of an etching primer or mechanical abrasion to roughen up the surface is recommended.

Thanks for explanation. Doesn't the same apply to aluminum and nickel-silver (and possibly other alloys)?

And as I mentioned earlier, I did not experience any paint adhesion issues (I use stinky organic solvent based paints) painting any of those metals. I suspect that water-based enamels might not adhere as well (without primer coat). Of course as I also mentioned earlier, my models are not exposed to extreme weather or rough handling.
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peteski

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Re: Best metal to use for etched details for N scale?
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2025, 12:03:51 PM »
+1
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bbussey

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Re: Best metal to use for etched details for N scale?
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2025, 03:08:40 PM »
0
I don't have a problem painting SS, or having paint wear off.  I prime, and then paint.
Bryan Busséy
NHRHTA #2246
NSE #1117
www.bbussey.net
Bridgeport & New London in N scale


Sokramiketes

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Re: Best metal to use for etched details for N scale?
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2025, 03:53:17 PM »
0
I figure most of the success here is that the paint fully encapsulates the small diameter parts, providing a shell instead of a coating.  So it all works out in the end. 

robert3985

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Re: Best metal to use for etched details for N scale?
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2025, 07:26:13 AM »
+2
I've used various metals for caboose parts, including brass, phosphor bronze, nickel silver and stainless steel. 

I've also used these metals in etchings, machined parts, investment-cast parts, and raw stock.

And now, I'm designing 3D models that allow me to have even more grab, railing and ladder details at the cost of being a bit thicker than either etched or wire parts.

So, what's more important?...near scale grab and end railing diameters or more details??

When looking at prototype photos of caboose (UP mainly) grabs and railings, as well as visiting preserved museum pieces at the Utah State Railroad Museum in Ogden, where I've taken hundreds of photos and measurements to incorporate into my UP caboose models, it's pretty plain that actual scale-sized grabs and railings are most likely impractical in N-scale, with many railings/grabs being in the 3/4" dia. neighborhood depending on how many coats of paint are on what I'm measuring. Prototype photos show these details to be very fine...much finer than any wire or etched N-scale versions I've ever applied to my models.

3/4" diameter translates into 0.00468"...or rounded off to 0.005" in N-scale...not including another mil (if you're lucky) for paint thickness, sooo...logically, 0.006" N-scale grabs SHOULD look prototypical, but they don't, so my memory is probably failing me as to the actual diameter of the real details.

However, for what kind of metal works "best' for grabs, ladders and end railings for N-scale cabooses, cars and motive power, since I'm not ham-fisted and handle my models with reasonable care, I've never found a durability problem using any of the aforementioned metals, and I used brass & phosphor bronze for the majority of detailing on my cabooses since both metals are hard enough, readily available, easily bent, and easily soldered.

I've also used NS etchings for some details, and I don't have a problem with that metal either, and I don't find a discernible difference between it and brass/bronze parts in any aspect other than availability.

I regularly use various alloys of Stainless Steel stock for specialized applications, particularly for unpainted grabs on my passenger equipment to represent prototype Nickel-plated grabs on passenger motive power and some premier passenger cars...and it works GREAT, and also looks great for shiny silver grabs.

Lately, I've been using it (0.006" polished Stainless Steel wire) for grabs on models that get painted, but I break the polished surface with 400 grit sandpaper, simply pulling the wire through a folded piece of sandpaper a few times before cutting and bending.  Also, I've never had a problem with cutting it with my not-hardened flush cutters.

What I like about stainless for painted grabs, is that if the paint wears off a bit for cars that are regularly handled, the metal underneath looks like steel, rather than yellow brass/bronze since prototypically that's the way it is.

If the need arises for soldering stainless stock or etchings, which happens on my scratch-built D-Type signal masts (made of Surgical Stainless Thin-Walled Hypodermic Steel), I just use Superior No.71 Stainless Soldering Flux Paste, which is readily available here: https://www.hnflux.com/page21.html at H&N Electronics Soldering & Brazing Flux and makes soldering brass/bronze, NS to Stainless simple. I also use their 96/4 Tin/Silver Silver-bearing solder since it's 5 to 6 times stronger than "regular" old electrical solders.

Frankly, I've NEVER used a "primer" for painting any of my metal models.  For my metal stock I'm going to use for fabricating grabs and end-platforms, I simply pull the wire or shapes through 400grit sandpaper a few times to scratch it sufficiently to give the paint something to grab on to, making sure that my assemblies are completely wax, grease and oil-free by removing these residues with 91% IPA and generous applications of Heptane (Bestine/Beacon-Solvent-Thinner) which does not affect plastic at all.

In the past, I've brush-painted my grabs and end-platforms on my cabooses, but this adds considerably to their diameter, as much at 3 mils (or more) depending on the paint, which sort of nullifies making grabs out of 0.006" stock when the end-product will be near .010" or thicker after applying paint with a brush. 

Now, I airbrush them...if possible BEFORE installing them into their matching mounting holes, but if not, then carefully masking them off before painting the car body, then, when the car body is thoroughly cured, removing the masking from end-platform railings/ladders, cleaning with Bestine, masking the car body (wearing Nitrile gloves) and airbrushing the attached end-platforms....and I do not use any primer whatsoever...and I've NEVER had a problem with paint adhering to my metal constructions or models if I've run the stock through 400grit sandpaper before cutting, bending, soldering and assembling...then thoroughly cleaning with a powerful, yet plastic-friendly solvent.

Photo (1) Here's a pic of one of my superdetailing projects, using 0.006" brass wire for the grabs on this old Hallmark "Welded UP Caboose" model, converting it into a pretty accurate model of a UP CA-8...notice the relatively small diameter of the grabs on this unpainted progress shot...


When painting the model, I airbrushed it with Scalecoat II, baked it at 175deg for half an hour, then, using Scalecoat II, I brush-painted the grabs and end-railings...

Photo (2) Here's the nearly-finished model with its brush-painted grabs and end-railings.  The grabs & end-railings are noticeably thicker, and the details on the investment cast portions are obviously obscured:


Although I thought the model looked much better than the stock-box model with it's hugely oversized grabs running boards, I never was happy with the increased diameter of the grabs and end-railings on this model, with their one coat of airbrushed body color paint, and then another coat of brush-applied red paint.

Although not detailed to the extent of my Hallmark brass CA-8, I kit-bashed a Micro Trains "Wooden Caboose" into a model of an actual UP CA-Class caboose, removing and replacing the cast-on grabs with bent 0.006" brass ones...but, since these prototypically were the same color as the body.

Photo (3) Kit-bashed MT "Wooden Caboose" turned into a specific UP CA Class caboose with its cast-on grabs removed and replaced with 0.006" wire, then airbrushed:



You'll notice that the grabs on the freight car red MTL CA-Class UP caboose, with a single coat of airbrushed paint are much smaller in diameter than the previous airbrushed-then-brush-painted grabs on the Hallmark CA-8.

Although I'm sure there are differences in the way various metals accept paint, in my experience, using good cleaning procedures, good handling procedures and quality model paints...I find no difference in the way my models of various construction materials and build-techniques retain their painted surfaces...and I never use primer, which adds thickness, obscures details, adds an additional step and, since I have never had a paint problem on my metal models, would not have "improved" adhesion nor durability on any of my painted project over the last 55+ years.

As far as "profile" is concerned...meaning a rectangular cross-section vs round... Sometimes, in N-scale (and smaller) it's near impossible to actually bend up grabs or end platform details...such as "Ladder Grabs" on the noses of E and F units with wire, and only rectangular, etched grabs are either available for properly representing these complexly bent style of grab-irons.  So, I live with the rectangular cross-section.  The same goes for caboose end-platform cross-sections, because very often, the metal shapes for these railings are a combination of rectangular (or other metal shapes) that transition into round cross-sections...so BOTH square and round cross-sections are prototypical, but only one profile is incorrect since both rectangular AND round profiles is what is correct.

Typically, grabs on the sides of the end-railings...and vertical supports, have a round cross-section, with horizontal portions and ladder sides being rectangular.  Ladder rungs can be either rectangular or round, depending on the specific prototype.  If there are other attachments, such as air pipes, vertical brake wheel shafts...these are round.  Other attachments, such as gussets, platform mounting girders, brake wheel housings and supports...these are shapes made from sheet metal and are not round.

Sooo...making end-platforms more correct, to incorporate both round AND rectangular AND constructed non-round components can be accomplished by making an etched "kit", allowing insertion of round wire into appropriately sized holes in the etching, and engineering housings (with half-etched bend lines) to accept round wires and/or mounting tabs/holes on the rest of assembly, all to be soldered together.

In my case, the most obvious use of a "kit" would be in two positions on my end-railings, these being (1) the ladders, with thin profiles (the thickness of the non-etched metal) and the profile and thickness of the side profile, with mounting holes where the round or etched rectangular rungs will mount, with the ends being snipped off after soldering and representing rivet-ends or bolt-heads on the outsides of the ladder rails.  (2) The second location would be the horizontal components of the end-railings, the top of the railings being rectangular, with holes where the vertical round wires protrude through and are bolted on, and the large, horizontal end-girder...a "C" channel with holes where bottoms of the round vertical components go through and are bolted securely...with rivet-heads where the back of the "C" channel is bolted to the steel frame, and where the platform steps are bolted on. 

If I was willing to pay for precision etched details for my cabooses (which I am) I want to use the potential of the medium, which allows me to design a "kit" that gives me a much more prototypical "look" than a mere one-piece bend-up etching gives me, and I'll have both rectangular and round components where they would prototypically be. 

Additionally, it would be quite easy to etch assembly/positioning jigs for holding and spacing the kit components when assembling and soldering...in the same fret.

Yes, both designing and assembling this "kit" would take a bit more time, but the results could be phenomenal...and it shouldn't cost much more than a simple one-etch fret, except if rivet details and bend lines are wanted.

I've thought about this a lot, and now that I've found a professional etcher only a few miles away, this is one project that will finally come to fruition in the near future if my resin 3D prints turn out to be too large or too fragile.

Hope this gives you something to think about...

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore







Ed Kapuscinski

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Re: Best metal to use for etched details for N scale?
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2025, 10:38:25 AM »
+1
I'm working with John LeMerise on a project ...

You lucky dog! lol.