Of Course, No New Structures In N Scale (Walthers Releases)

[thomasjmdavis]

I talked to someone at Walthers at the National in Salt Lake a few years back.  Interesting discussion. The basics were that while N participation was thought to be about 40% of HO's, sales were more like 25%, at least for structures.  Thus, to get to the minimum needed for reservations (I have often been told that is 300 units of anything) they would need to sell over 1200+ of anything in HO to consider making it in N.

A few years before that, in Grand Rapids...I had more or less the same discussion with a Walthers guy.
Much of the reason for the low relative sales of N scale buildings is that there is such a small selection. After you buy the dozen DPM (and-or Woodland Scenics) buildings and modulars,  and the half dozen Walthers "factories", you're basically  done with anything Walthers sells, and you ONLY NEED ONE OF EACH, other than the modular packs. The point is that we can only buy one each of a couple dozen buildings available at any given time, and likely fewer than that will be appropriate for our layout time and place. OK, I have bought multiples of a few factory buildings, so I can bash them into realistic buildings t

And ALL of the buildings are too damn small for an urban layout. 'Selectively compressed' factory buildings that were made to fit into a street scene on a 4x8 HO layout with 18" radius curves look ridiculous when scaled down to 1/4 of the HO footprint on a 4x8 N scale layout with 18" curves. I owned a "tiny" real factory in Chicago- it was 48' wide x100' deep (3"x 7.5" in N)- it was one of the smallest buildings in that area. An average "small" factory was 200'x 100' and maybe 3 stories tall. The large factories in the neighborhood were 1/2 a city block- say on the order of 600'x 200', three or four stories tall, with truck or rail docks behind. And those were not paper mills or steel plants, those were just 1920-ish brick buildings housing printing companies,"small" manufacturers and the like.

The irony in all of this is that they sell 2 different urban "underpass" bridges, which are great kits and say "BIG CITY" like nothing else does, and it doesn't occur to them that anyone who buys both needs to put a city block (about 1/8 of a mile- about 4' ) of urban buildings in between them to have them make any sense. And we don't all want the same urban block, even if it is on a module.

[Philip H]

There's also the issue that the "historic" portions of those product lines are not really southern, and only marginally midwestern.  The DPM stuff really screams mid Atlantic and may Chicago suburbs, but its nearly useless down south. Walthers few timber frame, wood sheathed structures like the Santa Fe freight warehouse and the lumber yard can be widely used.  Their modern HO stuff -  There's a half dozen of those I'd but in a heart beat.

[Rossford Yard]

A few years before that, in Grand Rapids...I had more or less the same discussion with a Walthers guy.
Much of the reason for the low relative sales of N scale buildings is that there is such a small selection. After you buy the dozen DPM (and-or Woodland Scenics) buildings and modulars,  and the half dozen Walthers "factories", you're basically  done with anything Walthers sells, and you ONLY NEED ONE OF EACH, other than the modular packs. The point is that we can only buy one each of a couple dozen buildings available at any given time, and likely fewer than that will be appropriate for our layout time and place. OK, I have bought multiples of a few factory buildings, so I can bash them into realistic buildings t

And ALL of the buildings are too damn small for an urban layout. 'Selectively compressed' factory buildings that were made to fit into a street scene on a 4x8 HO layout with 18" radius curves look ridiculous when scaled down to 1/4 of the HO footprint on a 4x8 N scale layout with 18" curves. I owned a "tiny" real factory in Chicago- it was 48' wide x100' deep (3"x 7.5" in N)- it was one of the smallest buildings in that area. An average "small" factory was 200'x 100' and maybe 3 stories tall. The large factories in the neighborhood were 1/2 a city block- say on the order of 600'x 200', three or four stories tall, with truck or rail docks behind. And those were not paper mills or steel plants, those were just 1920-ish brick buildings housing printing companies,"small" manufacturers and the like.

The irony in all of this is that they sell 2 different urban "underpass" bridges, which are great kits and say "BIG CITY" like nothing else does, and it doesn't occur to them that anyone who buys both needs to put a city block (about 1/8 of a mile- about 4' ) of urban buildings in between them to have them make any sense. And we don't all want the same urban block, even if it is on a module.

I agree with the "too small" comments for those of us with larger than table top layouts.  I typically kit bash the parts to doube the size, using plain styrene for the backs that won't be seen.  As to filling urban spaces, I content myself with the idea that there are so many vacant lots even in heavy city environments.  I think John Allen and George Selios among others, have convinced us that the urban structures are closer, denser, and much higher than real life.  I have been trying on my layout to avoid the over concentration.....but find myself filling every space in many cases.

[Pomperaugrr]

One needs to look no further than @Pomperaugrr and his Housatonic thread to see how it should be done. I’d like to sit the Walthers team down and force them to study it.

Thanks. 

The truly sad thing about Walthers attitude toward N scale is that it would not take much to create a market for N scale versions of their HO offerings.  I have actually modified a bunch of Walthers HO scale buildings to use in N scale, rather than scratchbuilding everything.  Some of the siding may be oversized, but it still looks acceptable when viewed in an overall scene.  Hell, they would not need to do much to make their existing HO scale designs work in N scale to make reasonable sized industries, simply change the door and window size openings, or even easier, just add conversion pieces to fill in or modify the HO scale openings. 

The N scale module argument is ridiculous, as reasonable sized industrial flats can be made easily from their kits, if they would just reduce them to N scale proportions.  I can see N scale module-based modelers and home layout modelers snapping them up for industries along the backdrops, if they couldn't fit the entire structure kit.

[Frank Amato]

Exactly why I am a proponent of the N Scale Architect scratchbuilding sheets:

https://thenarch.com/catalog/building-sheets/n-scale-sheets

  Frank

[thomasjmdavis]

Yep, a superb layout with exquisite structures. I don't think it would make any difference to Walthers, though. They seem to think most N scalers only build T-Trak or N-Trak modules. So where exactly is the data on that?

I imagine their data is based on wandering around the large shows, talking to all the N-Trak and T-Trak guys who put up the big modular layouts, and their friends, who make up a substantial proportion of N scalers at the shows, since that is where the module builders get together. So if 60% of the N scale modelers at the show identify as module builders, Walthers assumes that 60% of all N scalers are module builders.

Frankly, I suspect a whole lot of us are both. I have, essentially, 5 modules downstairs right now waiting for the basement to be painted so they can be turned into a layout.

[thomasjmdavis]

Exactly why I am a proponent of the N Scale Architect scratchbuilding sheets:

https://thenarch.com/catalog/building-sheets/n-scale-sheets

  Frank

Yeah, great stuff. I especially like that they make various brick "bonds" available, for those who are building models of buildings that pre-date WWII.

I just wish someone packaged several standard sizes of windows in wholesale/bulk discount quantities. Buying N scale windows in 4 packs for a buck/window is an expensive proposition when you need 120 windows for a decent sized building.  Some sort of punch designed to knock out those sizes would also be a big help- I find cutting dozens of windows out to be both tedious and ... well, my accuracy and dexterity are not what they were 40-50 years ago, and I end up starting over after I botch window #17 in a given wall section.

[Philip H]

Frankly, I suspect a whole lot of us are both. I have, essentially, 5 modules downstairs right now waiting for the basement to be painted so they can be turned into a layout.

Bingo.  I suspect the sales reps at the show don't both to ask the module admirers if they have home layouts.  Or read N scale magazine.

[Rossford Yard]

I don't believe there are any nefarious plots going on with the manufacturers, against N scale or otherwise.  Nor do I think anyone working for a mfg is truly so dumb and uncaring as to not try to find out the market, without going to some high $$$ consultant to tell them.  Their informal research has to be good enough.

I am pretty sure it is all about risk and money, especially with how sales have seem to have dropped (according to various sources) since the recessions of 2000 and 2009.

I think the idea of the window is great, and someone (some already have) will make them maybe even to order with 3D printing.  Even if Walthers had the molds as they will for reruns, the old style of making plastic kits probably isn't very remunerative.

I could never imagine new loco manufacturers but in comes FVM, BLI, Scale Trains, etc. (even Intermountain depending on how far you want to go back) now challenge the old standbys or Atlas and Kato (I never considered Concor or Life Like as true competitors although each has had its "hits."  So, while it is hard to imagine too many new N scale structure producers, this is America, and if there is a significant gap in the product lines, someone will probably jump in.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Yep, a superb layout with exquisite structures. I don't think it would make any difference to Walthers, though. They seem to think most N scalers only build T-Trak or N-Trak modules. So where exactly is the data on that?

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if they were right though.

@Pomperaugrr 's layout, like many of the stars of The Railwire are impressive, but part of that is their rarity. Think about the train shows you've been to. How many TTRAK layouts are there? How many NTRAK layouts? Now keep in mind that those layouts are all made up of the contributions of many members. One single TTRAK layout probably has more modelers contributing to it than there are decent sized home layouts within 100 miles of each of us.

[mplsjct]

I just wish someone packaged several standard sizes of windows in wholesale/bulk discount quantities. Buying N scale windows in 4 packs for a buck/window is an expensive proposition when you need 120 windows for a decent sized building.

agreed, simple double hung windows particularly, without the additional mullions like the Grand Line and Tichy windows have.

[wazzou]

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if they were right though.

Ed, you don't always have to be the wet blanket. 

[Wlal13again]

I would think the sets like the steel mill would be popular in N.  The smaller size of N would allow for a larger, more life like industry.  And the steel mill kits go for a good price so there must be some market there.   

[thomasjmdavis]

On the windows....one company that might fit the bill is Lunde. The windows for their buildings are done in sheets that fit the back of their wall units. we might have to cut them apart, but at least it would be lots of matching windows. I sent them an email years ago, asking if they had any "factory seconds" of those window sheets, but I don't recall them responding.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Ed, you don't always have to be the wet blanket. 

I know, I know, I'm the wurst.