Pico Whitcomb N scale w & wo sound pre-order

[randgust]

Feels like DejaVu all over again, as when Bachmann came out with the GE 70-tonner after I did my own kit.

The only thing I can add is that I'd been doing single truck Tomytec drives on my Whitcomb kits for years, and when I could still get Gizmozone 5.14:1 gearheads the results were outstanding for performance.     But the last one I built used the Tomytec ED-01 chassis, which finally produced an 8x8 drive that small with both trucks powered.  I never made much buzz about it because the ED-01 chassis rapidly went extinct, I still have my pilot model, and it confirmed what I always thought - it really makes that much of a difference in performance to get both trucks powered.  And the Tomytec drives have end-axle floating pickups not quite as good as a Kato, but close.   I got really good on turning the flanges on those as well.

The ED01 had a disadvantage on slow speed compared to the new one reviews, but it outpulled the single-truck Tomytec by about 40%. 

I'm glad to see a nice model made of this at a pretty good price, but after I read Marks review, I'll stick with mine.   If ever I saw a model that sacrificed just about everything to produce all the whiz-bang features at the expense of basic performance, that may be it.   The only 'little guy' I've ever seen that really blew me away in every possible way was the Hornby SW1, that's the high bar here.    I soured on sound vs. electrical issues the first time I got a BLI PA1 and it stalled...and stalled...and stalled.    If you want to see the way electrical pickup can be 100%, look at the Kato 11-108, freakin' amazing.

[peteski]

    I soured on sound vs. electrical issues the first time I got a BLI PA1 and it stalled...and stalled...and stalled.   

Sure did! 

You picked probably the worst possible model to judge sound decoder equipped models for reliability and pickup.  That thing was full of problems, from poor pickup on all 12 wheels, and really crappy BLI Paragon (3?) sound decoder which would stall and reboot on even a microsecond long power drop.  Basically any other non-BLI model should be used for honest evaluation of sound-equipped models.

[nickelplate759]

Sure did! 

You picked probably the worst possible model to judge sound decoder equipped models for reliability and pickup.  That thing was full of problems, from poor pickup on all 12 wheels, and really crappy BLI Paragon (3?) sound decoder which would stall and reboot on even a microsecond long power drop.  Basically any other non-BLI model should be used for honest evaluation of sound-equipped models.

So - I have two of those PAs.   Is it practical to add a keep-alive to them, and would it help?

[peteski]

So - I have two of those PAs.   Is it practical to add a keep-alive to them, and would it help?

Practical?  If you can locate where to connect the keep-alive on the Paragon decoder then yes.  Would it help?  I don't see why not. The larger capacitance, the better.
But I would replace those IMO sub-par Paragon 2 or 3 with a better decoder.  I don't actually own the PAs. I do own BLI E7 and I have not made any improvements to it yet Too many projects . . .

Spookshow actually gave these models an "A" rating, with a disclaimer. http://spookshow.net/loco/blipa.html

I guess we should go back to Whitcombs. 

[Jim Starbuck]

With a couple other projects off the bench I returned to the Whitcomb.
A train friend came over Saturday and I was eager to show off my new switcher as he is interested in buying one also.
I started it up and it immediately, stalled, stumbled, the sound cut out excessively and all in all, failed the demonstration miserably. I’m not sure what changed.
Obviously poor track pickup is the problem so I decided to look into remedies. Yes, granted at this price point Joe consumer would be dissatisfied and likely return it. I agree with @spookshow on that.
The two obvious remedies would be to replace the traction tires and/or add a keep alive. I emailed Piko support asking about connecting a TCS KA-N1 which could be located in the cab roof with a little modification. Again, at this price point not something the average modeler would likely start cutting into a new model. I explained what I had in mind to Piko and their reply was they didn’t have any experience doing this and it sounded like I knew what I was doing so basically go for it. Which I will.
I thought the more common fix would be to swap the traction tire axle so I went that route first. I suspect Piko has already had plenty of requests to sell such axles.

Removing the axle and getting to the wheelback wipers couldn’t be simpler. Take out two small Phillips flat head screws on the bottom of the truck and the side frame lifts right off. The axles lift right out as well.
I made replacements by modifying Kato wheels from the 932090 sets. I pressed out the cone point half axles then on the lathe drilled the center oversize and fashioned an insulating bushing which was then drilled out to match the Piko geared axle.
The gear puller removed the stock Piko wheels and the Kato replacements were added to the stock axle.

Now with all wheel electrical pickup stalling and dropouts were eliminated. Successful? Kinda. The engine will now pull 5 or 6 cars. I switched with it for a couple of hours and it runs beautifully but the jury is still out as to if it was worth the reduced pulling capacity.

Next up is to reinstall the traction tires and add a keep alive. I’m hoping that will be the win-win. We’ll see.

An annoying behavior the Whitcomb is displaying is weeping oil around the edge of the cab and details on the hood above the motor. Like many factory assembled engines, this one seems to be excessively over lubricated. I’ll take care of that while it’s apart.

I’ve found while running, having only one occurrence of the prime mover sound is plenty adequate as well. YMMV
I’ll report back with further developments.

Jim

[spookshow]

Glad to hear I'm not just a lone wolf howling in the wilderness 

-Mark

[Iain]

I got one, opened it up to find how they mechanically nerfed them in the name of sound.

i'm sorry, but in no universe should sound take priority over basic mechanical functionality.

[brokemoto]

I put a pair of them to work.  I have the DC only versions.

Pros: 

1.  The slow speed control is very good on these.

2.   A pair of them will get eleven freight cars of varying manufacture and a B-mann four wheel caboose up  2,2 per-cent grade and show no sign of slipping.  That is the most that I need.

Treatable cons:

1.  They do not like Kato #6 turnouts.  They kept picking the frogs.  The problem seems to be one of physics and geometry that is similar to long cuts of cars' derailing if they have truck mounted couplers.The force vector tends to push them off the track. This is what was happening with these.  The only way to solve this was to couple them at the #1 end (the powered truck is on the number One end).  this put the two powered trucks in the middle and the idler trucks at the end.

2.  Frequent break-aways.  You can treat this only by making sure that the coupling is solid and push the couplers each way with a small screwdriver. Still, you will get the occasional break-away.

3.  These things are unforgiving of mediocre trackwork.They are even more unforgiving than the worst older B-mann or Mehano locomotive/rolling stock that you use to test your trackwork.  You treat this by fixing you trackwork, although in some cases, you can not fix the turnouts.

Untreatable cons:

1. Frequent stalling.  I get it that Piko could power only one truck and still have room for a decoder and sound.  I get it that it tried to compensate for this by using a metal shell and a traction tire.  The problem with this is the traction tire.  Something with this small a foot print needs every live wheel that it can get.  Only six of eight wheels live on so small a locomotive severely compromises the electrical contact.  The metal shell and traction tire further exacerbate the problem by their very purpose.  Often, when you run two diesel locomotives in MU operation, if one loses contact, the other usually has enough OOMPH top push the one that lost contact a millimeter or two and let it re-establish contact.  Due to the heavy weight of this thing for its size, plus the traction tire, the stalled power will not budge.  It stays stalled.  This is a frequent occurrence, especially over turnouts, even those with live frogs. It occurs frequently enough to make these things useless for switching.

It is a shame. I had high  hopes for these things as I was having them simply pull a train on the main line.  They do that fine at speeds from fifteen to twenty five SMPH.  They are useless as either road or station switchers due to frequent stalling.

I was hoping to use two of these and three B-mann 44 tonners to handle the freight and switching duties.  A poster here (although he did so on  another forum) suggested that a most realistic roster for this type of non-historic would be something like this. A short line goes out and buys WW II surplus to dieselise, as new units from the builders would be out of the budget constraints for this type of railroad.  The B-manns' performance at this is top-notch; the PIKOs; somewhat  less so.  In fact, so much less so that I can not use them.

I suspected that replacing the tired wheelsets with plain metal would address the stalling porblem.  @Jim Starbuck  's experience confirms my suspicions.  Sadly, I have neither the tools nor the skill set to fashion new wheelsets.  I can only  hope that Piko will receive numerous complaints about stalling and make available a non-tired, geared wheelset,in the manner that Kato made available a traction tired driver for its USRA heavy 2-8-2.   If I could get that, I actually could use these again.  As it is, this is an expensive failure.

[Jim Starbuck]

To be honest, removing the traction tires isn’t really a viable solution either.
While electrical contact improves it turns into such an anemic puller that will only move 3 or 4 cars.
I think the solution is to keep the tires and add a keepalive which requires some material removal under the cab roof.
It’s on my to- do list but I’ve been busy with other projects.

[randgust]

As much as we don't like to admit it, physics are not our friend in N scale.    You need mass to create reliable electrical pickup, and mass to produce 15-20% maximum drawbar pull plated wheels on nickel silver.   Anything that reduces mass compromises that.   Your keep-alive will improve the pickup issue at the expense of even slightly less mass for pulling.     While I'm astounded at the ability to fit in DCC decoders and speakers and possibly smoke units into N scale, every one of those has a penalty at the coupler.  It's not free.

The other thing we need to focus on is pickup design, most 4-wheel trucks are very stiff and have no ability to flex to keep all four points of contact.  If you look at the brilliance of end-axle pickups, part of it is the 'spring wiper' on the nub that puts downward pressure on the end axles that translates down to better wheel to rail electrical contact.  That means the axles have to be slightly loose and allow flexing through the end axle pickups.  Kato has done this briliantly in both the little 11-105, their tender and caboose trucks, etc.   The only better is the rocking-pickup they put in the 11-108 chassis, that's incredible and is even better as it fully equalizes a four-wheel system.    You have to study that one to realize how simple and revolutionary it really is.

Now, replace that with a fixed wire or lock those end-axles in place by choice or accident, and you've introduced a new problem.   I've had to rebuild my Kato 11-105 Shay chassis due to that, I just couldn't figure out why it kept stalling compared to other ones, until I realized I'd bound up that flex feature.

In HO you never had to fill an entire body full of lead to make it work right, plenty of room, but in N it's a battle.   As I've been making Whitcombs since about 2007 with the Tomytec chassis (floating end-axle pickups standard) I've had plenty of time to expiriment.  I've managed DCC, front and rear LED headlights, traction tires vs. none, gearheads, and now even 8-wheel drive, but never all at the same time.   Always a tradeoff. 

[Jim Starbuck]

I might do some experimenting measuring weight on the driving truck of the Whitcomb. Even though the total locomotive has good weight, it’s not balanced very well.
My little EMD Model 40 outpulls the Whitcomb by 2 1/2 times. It’s also two axle/ no traction tires but simply by design the weight is centered over the drivers.

[brokemoto]

To be honest, removing the traction tires isn’t really a viable solution either.
While electrical contact improves it turns into such an anemic puller that will only move 3 or 4 cars.

The ability to shuffle three or four cars at a time would meet many of my needs if I were to use them as terminal or station switchers. If I used a pair of them, six to eight cars would be the most that it would need to do as a terminal switcher at one point. 

It has been my experience that small power needs help with the electrical contact.  Whether you run in MU (which you can with diesels and electrics). use a powered box/baggage car (assuming same or very similar throttle response), an electrically live car, an electrically live dummy locomotive (to which you have hardwired the powered, on the last two) or even hardwire two powered locomotives/cars together, the small power needs help.  I have done all of the above.  One of them always works.

MU operation does not help the Whitcombs.  Perhaps hardwiring a pair together might work but right now I  can not figure out how to do this.  Replacing the tired axles and operating them in MU should do what I want it to for some use.

I ran them up the 2,2% grade just to see what they would do.  In the prototype world, the thirteen hundred twenty horses of the two of them would not be enough to get the tonnage of that train up that hill.  It would need help in the prototype world.  I provide that help in the modelling world from the Short Creek Junction station switcher (Atlas Shay).

I looked at it and guessed what @Jim Starbuck discovered:  It ain't all that hard to get at the wheelsets. In fact, it looked much like the old Arnold S-2.  I have yet to open up mine, but if I can get hold of two non tired wheelsets, I am going to make the change.

I think the solution is to keep the tires and add a keepalive which requires some material removal under the cab roof.

I would believe that.  I m not a DCC user, so "keep-alive" is not an option for me.  If any DCC user does that to these things, I would be curious to see how well it works, all the same.

[Jim Starbuck]

The ability to shuffle three or four cars at a time would meet many of my needs if I were to use them as terminal or station switchers. If I used a pair of them, six to eight cars would be the most that it would need to do as a terminal switcher at one point. 

I looked at it and guessed what @Jim Starbuck discovered:  It ain't all that hard to get at the wheelsets. In fact, it looked much like the old Arnold S-2.  I have yet to open up mine, but if I can get hold of two non tired wheelsets, I am going to make the change.

Yes, the trucks come apart like the Arnold S2. Two screws on the bottom and the sideframe lifts right off then the axles will lift out of the gearbox. When I reinstall any wheelback wiper axles I always pinch both wipers together against the gearbox then drop the axle in.
So I got out the one I made all wheels live and kicked cars around the Unitrack test layout for an hour or so. Electrically it performs just fine. In that time it dropped out once on a not so clean siding. It pulls 6 or 7 cars depending on type. It’s doing laps at the moment  with two 40’ boxcars, two 33’ hoppers, a tank car, a 40’ gon and a 42’ flat with no problems.
While not the strongest puller in the fleet, it’s electrically stable enough now to reliable switch with.
I’m not ready to write them off as failures just yet.

[brokemoto]

I’m not ready to write them off as failures just yet.

For three hundred fifty bananas plus the time I took to letter them for my non-historic railroad, I was not relegating these things to their box without a fight,

These things are finicky and unforgiving.  They get Wheelcrud Syndrome easily.

Oddly enough, they were running on the Short Creek industrial trackage with no problem.  Parts of that have Peco "matchbook" sharp curve turnouts with plastic frogs.  The problems, oddly enough, were on the parade track.  I worked on the mediocre trackwork and improved it.  They now can work Short Creek as terminal switchers.  I do have two other Peco turnouts there that I will have to replace.  Those things are high maintenance and unreliable. Oddly enough, the "matchbook" turnouts do not show the loss of contact as frequently as the others.

I moved down to the Halfway Hall industrial trackage.  The only real problem there was a Kato #4.  The pair would run over the diverging but derailed on the main   All of the filing and other suggested fixes were in vain, so I got out my Kato bags and went looking for another #4.  The first thing upon which I came was a Unitram® pair of turnouts.  Just for fun, I affixed the turnout piece to the track, threw the points for the diverging, applied throttle and THE PAIR CLEARED IT..  This was the outside turnout that has a slightly more broad radius.  There was not a bump, hiccup, pause or anything.  The pair sailed through it! I got out some more Unitram and ran the pair through main and diverging several times.  No stall, hiccup, pause;  plastic frogs, diamonds and all!  STREET RUNNING is back on the Short Creek and Nopedale!.  I had to fiddle around with some of the track pieces. as the pair did climb on some of the curved pieces and lose contact.  I now have industrial street trackage where the pair will run.   As finicky and unforgiving as these things are, they will clear at least the more broad turnout on Unitram.

I will continue to hope that Piko will issue spare geared/non-tire wheelsets.

Thank you for confirming some of my suspicions on these.   For three hundred fifty bananas plus my time, I will not let these go quietly into a box of stuff that I do not run any more.

[bbunge]

So without the tires, they pull about as well as a B-mann 44 toner.  Putting aside good balance across the axles on hold, the 44 tonner has 8.83g weight per axle.  How does that compare to the Pico?  We recently acquired a BLI SW-7, it pulls somewhat better.  Now I want to weigh it. 

For comparison here are some other weights per axle:

Bachmann F-7: 21.04g
Kato SD-80Mac: 22g
Kato ES4400: 19.2g

Bob