You think I'd know better - Trix 2-10-0 rebuild

[randgust]

Just to update the thread here with what was on the weekend update:

[randgust]

I'm going to blow the dust off of this one..... now that I've kind of calmed down after a few months.

I had a really nice-running DC Decapod there on the ATSF layout, and I shook it down unmercifully before I converted it to DCC with the Tsunami decoder.  And then shook it down again on my own DCC test tracks.  The point of this whole project was to have a high-performance DCC steam locomotive with sound that could handle T-trak, with sound, at Altoona.   Not a show pony.

And I got that to work well, got the driver sync down to realistic levels, got the banshee whistle feature loaded.   Ready for action in Altoona.   The only witnesses I had to this was probably WM3798 and a couple others there when I put it on a DCC loop.

And it pretty much failed.  It hesitated.   for no apparent reason, just stopped, restarted..   One would assume contact, but remember the locomotive is all live, and the tender is 8x8 as well, so....?
I'd put the standard capacitor in there that comes with the decoder, but I'm really thinking I'm going to go with a real keep-alive.   I put an Iowa Scaled Engineering R-N-Smooth power keeper (which is tiny) as a test for constant lighting elsewhere, that's a big success, I think I swap that capacitor out with one of those for next year.

BUT, the other thing that greatly irritated me was that it was painfully obvious that when it did run, it constantly derailed the pilot truck. Didn't do that on my home layout.  Remember I'd swapped out the lead truck for smaller flanges, (Peteski!) and that came back to bite me on Kato #4's on Ttrak modules - not my own, because those were fixed, but on everybody elses.   So I'm going to have to put a different lead truck on it with deep flanges to run Ttrak, probably a modified Trix, don't know, but that original modified lead truck picked every set of Kato switches.   I can either do that or turn into the Kato switch Nazi and demand the standard fix compliance.

So after a lap or so, I yanked it, greatly disappointed. 

The other thing I've considered, since I have a spare Trix tender, plugs, Kato trucks, etc. is making a 'DC Only' tender frame or entire tender to swap out.  I've got a 6-pin connector in there on the locomotive.  Yes, the decoder should handle pure DC, but I don't use pure DC on my home layout, and any kind of pulse, square-wave transistorized DC has proven to be fatal on several decoders, and I don't particularly feel like sacrificing this one.

[peteski]

BUT, the other thing that greatly irritated me was that it was painfully obvious that when it did run, it constantly derailed the pilot truck. Didn't do that on my home layout.  Remember I'd swapped out the lead truck for smaller flanges, (Peteski!) and that came back to bite me on Kato #4's on Ttrak modules - not my own, because those were fixed, but on everybody elses.   So I'm going to have to put a different lead truck on it with deep flanges to run Ttrak, probably a modified Trix, don't know, but that original modified lead truck picked every set of Kato switches.   I can either do that or turn into the Kato switch Nazi and demand compliance.

So after a lap or so, I yanked it, greatly disappointed.

Well, after being a member  of a local NTRAK club for 30+ years I van vouch that the track quality on modular layout like NTRAK is sub-par. Especially if the owners dont' maintain the modules (or on club-owned modules with no owner), that my expectation of smooth running are rather low.

Perfect example is last weekend's show. Friend brought his Kato SP Morning Daylight set (and a pair of diesels and the GS-4) to run on the layout and he had nothing by problems.  This exact set runs flawlessly on his home layout (but his layout has pretty much flawless track).

I also had  multiple disappointments over the years with some of my models (which run fine elsewhere) having tough time staying on track on NTRAK layouts.

So the lesson is that you can have a nice realistic looking model or a model which will run acceptably well on NTRAK layouts with all of their warts (like  3 scale foot rail gaps at the connecting tracks).  Yeah, yeah,  the club could do a better job enforcing the NTRAK standards and overall module quality, but that just ain't happening here.

One thing I'm surprised  is that your loco had problems on T-Trak which uses Kato Unitrak as that stuff is bulletproof. I guess I would have to see exactly where the low-flange pilot wheels were derailing on the Unitrak switch to figure out what the problem was.  I seem to  recall that there was some issue with Kato #4's switch points. Not sure as I don't have much exposure to Unitrak.

As for the DCC model stalling, the best way to troubleshoot whether it is electrical pickup problem or something else is to have the headlight on and watch it while the model is running.  If it flickers or goes dark then the problem is 100% electric pickup from the track (or to be completely thorough, between the track and the decoder, so that would include all of the model's internal contacts).  Blaming the decoder or DCC in general is counterproductive.  Yes adding extra capacitors (less than few thousand µF) or a "real" keep-alive (hundred thousands of µF) will mask the pickup problems.  Those circuits are helpful, especially in small scales, as it's very difficult to achieve 100% reliable electrical contact

[MK]

The biggest problem in terms of track work for T-Trak layouts is at the connection between modules.  People are sloppy in leveling and you end up with "speed bumps" that catch coupler pins, plows or scrape the underside of passenger cars.  For some strange reason, there are very few, if any, dips!

When I'm in charge of the electrical, I often yell out "level your modules" a few times as people setup their modules to remind them to set their level standard to the module they are connecting to.   

My Kato Shinkansen is the ultimate tester as the belly of the cars are really low and they'll easily detect raised inter-module connections!  Then we issue punishment of 10 lashes with a wet noodle.

[dem34]

One thing I'm surprised  is that your loco had problems on T-Trak which uses Kato Unitrak as that stuff is bulletproof. I guess I would have to see exactly where the low-flange pilot wheels were derailing on the Unitrak switch to figure out what the problem was.  I seem to  recall that there was some issue with Kato #4's switch points. Not sure as I don't have much exposure to Unitrak.

You'd be surprised. I had to put the hammer down at the last meeting about Module verification when representing our club. Some people just don't test their stuff before bringing it and you can have modules that technically meet the minimums but have rails flopping about or somehow have major short circuits with just 2 straight pieces of track. As of now the ole inbox now has a couple emails poo pooing that the holy module roster can only be verified at meetings and not self reported with the boeing method.

[randgust]

I have two Ttrak modules with Kato 4's on them, where the inner track hits the diverting side 'at speed' for all trains.   First year I put them out I caused derailments.  The problem is on a stock turnout the diverging point is just 'there' and anything without a substantial flange angle or fillet will bang into it and there you go.  The 'fix' is to jerk the stock straight rail out with pliers, file a notch in the stock rail, and shove it back in.  Works great.

But in any Ttrak 'junction', that #4 diverging as a facing-point switch is a standard feature, and that's what I was piling up on, consistently, with my pilot truck.

Frankly, it's so easy to remove/swap the lead truck on a Trix Decapod (particularly when I have extra parts) that it a dumb, but easy, fix, that I can swap back just as easy.

And I think Mike was witness to this too, I was getting reasonably frustrated......
Brought the Dec back, set it up on my modules with a test loop return,  and flawless in performance. One of the other 'variables' was the wireless DCC throttle setup, which we were pushing channels to the max down there for capacity and range. 

[peteski]

Sounds like latout made up of T-Trak modules have similar problems that NTRAKkers have been putting up for decades.  And here I thought that T-Trak with the reliable Unitrak would be almost trouble free.  Again, it looks like the human factor is the main cause of the problem.

[dem34]

Sounds like latout made up of T-Trak modules have similar problems that NTRAKkers have been putting up for decades.  And here I thought that T-Trak with the reliable Unitrak would be almost trouble free.  Again, it looks like the human factor is the main cause of the problem.

Kato Unitrak is Bulletproof. Its just that some are gifted to be RPGs.

[peteski]

Kato Unitrak is Bulletproof. Its just that some are gifted to be RPGs.

LOL. 

[u18b]

I have found some Unitrak rail curves up on the ends.


I've had to adjust them many times.

[dougnelson]

Just a note on the Pennsy I1 decapods. The I1s were the work horses of the PRR and played a big role in the Allies winning WWII. Its hard to model the PRR without them.

[randgust]

Well, in preparation for Altoona I really wanted my sound-equipped, DCC Decapod to take another shot at it after last years 'fail'.

So in testing, the first problem emerged.   It's behaving badly; surging like crazy.    Can't get speed control, barely moves then explodes.

Got disgusted enough to tear it down an start inspection.   Commutator was filthy, hot-wired that and cleaned it.   Reassembled.  No change.  Tear apart again.   

Uh-oh.  Big time.  That tiny little scrap of metal is a chunk of armature wire.  It's got a broken armature.  For a Kato motor, that's pretty extraordinary, even if these are the original PA1 motors I've had for about 40 years.   Junk.   Unrepairable.   Tear out and replace the motor.  That's a project. 

May as well do some other things.   First, I wanted to improve the pilot truck.  As much as Peteski encouraged me, that pilot truck didn't like Ttrak switches facing point diverging one little bit, derailed on every one, resulted in pulling it off the Ttrak layout.   So I turned the flanges a bit on the original truck (had spares), filled in the spokes, increased clearances and tried it out on 11" curves bare chassis rolling.   Think I got it.  I can swap trucks back for photos, but that original build worked fine on my layout, did not at shows.

Put in another motor and improved the worm mounting, that had been an issue.   So I at least bench tested it again last night and it's running OK.  I think.  Maybe.  Have to finish rewiring it.

But another real problem needs fixed.  My big layout is all DC, and it's transistor throttles, and those just don't get along with DCC decoders at all.  And this thing has been REALLY mechanically fussy and difficult to bench test with the tender and decoder.  So I'm making a 'plain jane' tender frame, just DC, to get around all the decoder issues and be able to simply run the thing simple DC to test and tweak it mechanically.  I have the TCS 6-pin connector in the mix so I literally can easily swap tenders and go DCC to DC here if I do it.   Finished the second frame up last night, that's the hard part done.   Although I'd run the wheels off of it before I converted it to a decoder doing any maintenance on it is beyond difficult.

I still don't know if this is going to work.  I sure have put in a lot of time on it, the sound is fantastic, the tractive effort is very good, but between the derailing and the throttle issues last year at Altoona was just a complete bust.  Definition of insanity, away I go.   And my backup plan (use Ed's beautiful PRR 2-8-0 to pull my circus train) may not work now either.

[peteski]

You will succeed! I have faith in you Randy!

[randgust]

New motor, reassembled, test track only..... appears a successful repair.   Good slow speed again and smooth operation.

[wm3798]

I'll bring my resin cast conversion...  @Lemosteam repowered it with a LifeLike motor, and whatever other wizardry he put under the hood, but it's still a bit wonky.  Naturally, the drive ran great until I got through with installing the weights and shell, so I'm sure I knocked something out of whack.
If nothing else, we can shoot them side by side in front of the Cumberland Station, or perhaps elephant style on the Hickory Bridge to see who got the DGLE the closest...

Lee